OV9

Rich B wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:36 am the WFA is a strange one though, the concept of making it means tested seems totally correct. Why should Alan Sugar be paid tax money from the potentially very poor? Why should pensioners living in Spain get it? etc…. my mum always donated hers to charity because she didn’t need it.

unfortunately they’ve gone about it in a very blunt way - which has just pissed everyone off.

Didn’t he recently have a £186M tax bill - I think giving him back £300 isn’t too horrendous

Rich B wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:36 am the WFA is a strange one though, the concept of making it means tested seems totally correct. Why should Alan Sugar be paid tax money from the potentially very poor? Why should pensioners living in Spain get it? etc…. my mum always donated hers to charity because she didn’t need it.

unfortunately they’ve gone about it in a very blunt way - which has just pissed everyone off.

Rich is correct. Poverty amongst pensioners is at record low levels - which is not surprising when the baby boomers who are now pensioners were the generation that saw the greatest growth in their wealth. I've spoken to plenty of them this year because my father turned 80 and had a few parties. The 'oh, I get this free bus pass and I get this payment and that payment' conversations are commonplace. A lot of money is being given to people who don't need it. Means testing is clearly the right thing to do.

ZedLeg wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 8:55 am tbf to Dave!’s doctor. There can’t be many healthcare professionals that would recommend an all beef diet

No, he spent 2 years saying I’m just getting old though.

All my ailments are now gone and I’ve gone private because the local doctors simply didn’t care enough.

The Mother in Law is hugely more mobile and nearly pain free as they said her shoulder would be arthritis as she has it in both knees and hips. 4 weeks of a very good private physio and she is fine.

An old doctor in Deeping gets really angry at current doctors but I’m taking it with a pinch of salt as he seems pretty angry in general

Dave!

The physio goes back to what Newt was saying about resources outside of hospital/emergency care.

The funding within the NHS isn’t good so it’s hard to get appointments.

I also occasionally use a private physio for old shoulder damage.

ZedLeg wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 12:04 pm The physio goes back to what Newt was saying about resources outside of hospital/emergency care.

The funding within the NHS isn’t good so it’s hard to get appointments.

I also occasionally use a private physio for old shoulder damage.

Nothing to do with funding, my doctor said rest it and magic will happen.
The NHS pick up needles for free, I had a tub full in a needle bin. They drove from Grantham to my house to collect it, one tub, 2 people. What an absolute waste of money. I’ve now found a chemist who will take them with no prior planning.

Dave!

Ok Dave

V8Granite wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 12:11 pm The NHS pick up needles for free, I had a tub full in a needle bin. They drove from Grantham to my house to collect it, one tub, 2 people. What an absolute waste of money. I’ve now found a chemist who will take them with no prior planning.

Most local authorities have sharps disposal, but to be honest it's worth getting off the heroin.

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 12:15 pm

V8Granite wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 12:11 pm The NHS pick up needles for free, I had a tub full in a needle bin. They drove from Grantham to my house to collect it, one tub, 2 people. What an absolute waste of money. I’ve now found a chemist who will take them with no prior planning.

Most local authorities have sharps disposal, but to be honest it's worth getting off the heroin.

But it keeps me off the Coke

Dave!

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 11:43 am A lot of money is being given to people who don't need it. Means testing is clearly the right thing to do.

I'll be honest, I'm with Zed(ish) on this one - give it to all as the vast majority will benefit and the, probably comparatively few, well off retirees may benefit.

"Giving money to people who don't need it" is a little bit too broad a concept for my liking - I'm fortunate in that when I retire, private pension income should be enough for me to live in. So technically speaking, I won't "Need" the state pensions. But I'll be fully paid up so it's my money and I'll take it.

But I appreciate it's a Tin foil Hat - "they've coming for what I've got" view.

dinny_g wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 12:33 pm

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 11:43 am A lot of money is being given to people who don't need it. Means testing is clearly the right thing to do.

I'll be honest, I'm with Zed(ish) on this one - give it to all as the vast majority will benefit and the, probably comparatively few, well off retirees may benefit.

"Giving money to people who don't need it" is a little bit too broad a concept for my liking - I'm fortunate in that when I retire, private pension income should be enough for me to live in. So technically speaking, I won't "Need" the state pensions. But I'll be fully paid up so it's my money and I'll take it.

But I appreciate it's a Tin foil Hat - "they've coming for what I've got" view.

You haven't "paid up" though. You earned enough credits to be eligible. I mean I'll be royally pissed off if the state pension becomes means tested by the stage I get there, but I appreciate that I haven't literally been putting money into a pot to be able to draw it back down - I've just been paying my taxes and hoping that there'll be enough in the public coffers to get something back for it down the line.

dinny_g wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 12:33 pm

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 11:43 am A lot of money is being given to people who don't need it. Means testing is clearly the right thing to do.

I'll be honest, I'm with Zed(ish) on this one - give it to all as the vast majority will benefit and the, probably comparatively few, well off retirees may benefit.

"Giving money to people who don't need it" is a little bit too broad a concept for my liking - I'm fortunate in that when I retire, private pension income should be enough for me to live in. So technically speaking, I won't "Need" the state pensions. But I'll be fully paid up so it's my money and I'll take it.

But I appreciate it's a Tin foil Hat - "they've coming for what I've got" view.

Pensioner poverty is between 15-18%; if we assume that means testing won't be a sharp cut-off at the poverty threshold, maybe two thirds of pensioners won't get it because they don't need it. I think the biggest risk is the cost of administering the means testing. ETA: to be clear, I am still talking about the winter fuel payment, not pensions.

WFA costs are only about £2bil a year according to google.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... 520billion.

I can’t see this process saving any money in the long term.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 12:37 pm You haven't "paid up" though.

By paid up I mean I'll have made my 35 years of National Insurance Contributions.

In truth, based on when I came to England and the pension age rising to 67, I'll have made 43 years of contributions so the 8 extra years paying with no additional benefit, I'll take that in winter fuel allowances please

Edit - Instead of cutting winter fuel, remove the ability for people who worked here for a few years, ages ago, to retrospectively make a payment to bring themselves up to minimum levels so they can claim a pension. There are tens of thousands of people doing this before a deadline.

There should be a rule - if you are a foreign national and leave the country for, say 5 years, all entitlement is lost or summat. Appreciate that's future money but still..

dinny_g wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 12:33 pm

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 11:43 am A lot of money is being given to people who don't need it. Means testing is clearly the right thing to do.

I'll be honest, I'm with Zed(ish) on this one - give it to all as the vast majority will benefit and the, probably comparatively few, well off retirees may benefit.

"Giving money to people who don't need it" is a little bit too broad a concept for my liking - I'm fortunate in that when I retire, private pension income should be enough for me to live in. So technically speaking, I won't "Need" the state pensions. But I'll be fully paid up so it's my money and I'll take it.

But I appreciate it's a Tin foil Hat - "they've coming for what I've got" view.

let’s not make anything proportionate then. let’s just take the countries costs and divide them by the population. Rich people will make loads more and those paid very little will just have to pay all their money in tax (and owe a little more each year too).

Or we could tax wealth

Illiquid wealth is very difficult to tax and raises little money wherever it has been tried.

Politicians are also too braindead to work out that Total Asset Value is different to Net Asset Value and that liquidity correlates with neither of those things.

ZedLeg wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:48 pm Or we could tax wealth

Nice headline, never works in reality: https://www.ft.com/content/1ed71bcb-e35 ... 9f8c3e370b

ZedLeg wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 12:43 pm WFA costs are only about £2bil a year according to google.

IMG_1759.jpeg

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... 520billion.

I can’t see this process saving any money in the long term.

Looks to me as if there's £1.3bn+ which can be saved there, which is a decent step towards the £22bn black hole. In fact, looking at the cost of living allowance as well, maybe there's £3.3bn which is 15% of the way to filling the hole.

If it raises more than £1.5bil a year it’s a better option than the WFA changes.

If we accept that increasing economic inequality is bad, we should be open to options that will even it out imo.

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:56 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Fri Sep 13, 2024 12:43 pm WFA costs are only about £2bil a year according to google.

IMG_1759.jpeg

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... 520billion.

I can’t see this process saving any money in the long term.

Looks to me as if there's £1.3bn+ which can be saved there, which is a decent step towards the £22bn black hole. In fact, looking at the cost of living allowance as well, maybe there's £3.3bn which is 15% of the way to filling the hole.

Based on Reeves own estimates it’ll save £1.5bil. Which means that the “black hole” will be filled somewhere around 2035. It’s an indication of another pretty bleak decade for poor people.