OV9

That's no surprise.

The definition of an immigrant is someone who comes to live permanently in a foreign county.

So if you enter into a country without following the correct legal channels you will have done so illegally, which must make you an illegal immigrant

DeskJockey wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 8:40 pm That's no surprise.

Come on now, if you want to make a point, make it. don’t go Broccers on us.

I thought I did make a very clear point. There's no such thing as "illegal immigration". There's types of immigration that is disliked or frowned upon for various reasons, and the method by which people arrive may be illegal, but the immigration itself isn't an illegal activity, just as there's no "illegal immigrants" either.

That makes zero sense. Sounds like you’re getting your moral views mixed up with the legal system.

Arrive illegally and for nefarious reasons then you are a criminal.

Illegal immigration is a thing, immigrants taking the piss is a thing, illegal immigrants lying about who they are, destroying property, threatening behaviour etc is a thing.

Spend a week in Peterborough around Lincoln road. 25% of the town is foreign born, which in itself is no problem, it certainly wasn’t 20/25 years ago. So why is it the absolute epi-centre of crime in the town now? What changed ?
Un-controlled anything is a problem, it’s a no go area at night now where it used to be on a popular drinking route. Not anymore.
Rentals are a pain, my friend is constantly having to deal with large groups in homes that shouldn’t have so many in. Car crime with threatening purchasers stopped my friend doing his side hustle of doing up cars. I wouldn’t feel safe walking down the area at night and if there is a stabbing, it’ll be between a Lithuanian and Polish person on Lincoln road. It’s why I no longer go down there at night as the last time I did I was jumped by 3 people for “walking so big”.

The council knowingly put them all in the same area as they get budgets for programs and get more employees. There was a scandal about it years back which became public.

It’s fucked up areas of the U.K., just because that isn’t an area you live in doesn’t mean it isn’t negatively affecting a lot of people in the country.

Dave!

I’ve mentioned it loads of times but Peterborough had a really nicely integrated foreign community, that stopped in the early 2000s and now the town is a shithole.

What people are doing currently is just yob behaviour and I hope they all get put away for what they are doing. It’s an underlying problem for people though and very sadly, it means people are understanding why they’re doing it. Which just shows how frustrated people have become and how much of a concern it is.

Dave!

No, DJ is closer to the truth than most people think.

To be fair, a lot of people are a bit loose on the details on this.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/r ... in-the-uk/

Basically, an illegal immigrant is either someone who has

- overstayed their welcome on a visa (varying definitions, details unimportant for the point of this discussion), or
- has arrived irregularly and either not claimed asylum (rare, see below), or been refused asylum (more common), and
- the children of illegal immigrants - you can't come over as an illegal immigrant, have a kid, and automatically get your kid citizenship - we don't do that.

https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/infor ... ut-asylum/

Very few people who come to the country through irregular means aren't seeking asylum/refugee status - you don't cross one of the busiest shipping channels in the region in a small boat for a bit of a giggle - and those who are are here illegally without claiming asylum are regularly under the auspices of criminal gangs, who tell them they will be working legally so they can send money back to their family.

Then, you know take their documentation and possessions off of them and literally fucking enslave them, because what are they going to do, go to the police?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25914594

Something that isn't improving, partially because of the very poor level of discourse around immigration among the majority of the population in this country - although it's important to note that improvements in policing on this front since the cockle pickers disaster have occurred, which has increased awareness/reporting of it, etc.

As an example of crap discourse, there's no such thing as an "illegal immigrant claiming benefits" - as soon as your leave to remain (either for work, as a refugee, etc) status is dropped, you don't get benefits any more unless you get a very rare exception.

By definition, almost any migrant on benefits is either
- A migrant worker between jobs,
- Someone with existing refugee status, or
- an asylum seeker awaiting leave to remain.

And they typically don't have access to the same level of benefits as a regular citizen anyway.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/illega ... ts-access/
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/immig ... h-housing/
"If you don’t have a right to be in the UK, you can’t claim public funds."

Basically, the vast, overwhelming majority of immigration into this country, be it irregular or on a visa, only becomes illegal once you have had your asylum claim turned down or had your leave to remain removed for any reason - and we are obliged to process that claim because not being party to the various acts of international law involved would mean being booted out of organisations like, er, the UN. Which we rather like being part of.

Immigration is, in short, almost never illegal at the point of entry, which is how it's almost always framed before anyone wants to get pendantic. Anyone can turn up on our shores, by any means, apply for asylum and expect to be treated fairly till their claim is processed - and that's entirely legal.

But most people who don't like to hear that certainly don't want to spend 10 minutes on Google having their preconceptions blown apart.

(that's not a jibe at anyone here - that's just an evergreen fact about a lot of things, and I'm guilty enough of it myself)

DeskJockey wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 9:55 pm I thought I did make a very clear point. There's no such thing as "illegal immigration". There's types of immigration that is disliked or frowned upon for various reasons, and the method by which people arrive may be illegal, but the immigration itself isn't an illegal activity, just as there's no "illegal immigrants" either.

I was under the impression that (and I'm sure this applies to most countries) if you rock up on a boat without a passport or visa, you don't pass through border control and you don't seek asylum after arriving, then you are illegally residing in that country.

Gavster wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 10:26 pm

DeskJockey wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 9:55 pm I thought I did make a very clear point. There's no such thing as "illegal immigration". There's types of immigration that is disliked or frowned upon for various reasons, and the method by which people arrive may be illegal, but the immigration itself isn't an illegal activity, just as there's no "illegal immigrants" either.

I was under the impression that (and I'm sure this applies to most countries) if you rock up on a boat without a passport or visa, you don't pass through border control and you don't seek asylum after arriving, then you are illegally residing in that country.

Same, it’s the first bullet point on the ‘Illegal Migraction Act’
https://www.gov.uk/government/collecti ... ation-bill

Gavster wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 10:26 pm

DeskJockey wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 9:55 pm I thought I did make a very clear point. There's no such thing as "illegal immigration". There's types of immigration that is disliked or frowned upon for various reasons, and the method by which people arrive may be illegal, but the immigration itself isn't an illegal activity, just as there's no "illegal immigrants" either.

I was under the impression that (and I'm sure this applies to most countries) if you rock up on a boat without a passport or visa, you don't pass through border control and you don't seek asylum after arriving, then you are illegally residing in that country.

That was my understanding and how I can’t see how there can’t be such a thing as illegal immigrants.

Obviously the knobheads setting fire to hotels claiming they’re full off illegals ( which they can’t be because if they were actual illegals the government wouldn’t know who they were or where they are or be paying for their hotel rooms) don’t understand the distinction between people applying through the proper channels, claiming asylum etc and those that slip in unknown and vanish.

Back in 2003 a coach driver I knew was driving people
Being thrown out of the country for having no more avenues to claim asylum. Normally young men and when they asked to stop the coach he wasn’t allowed to say no, basically you can’t stop someone needing a wee.

At the point most of the people got off and never returned. He said around 20% stayed on. So where are they now ?

I don’t know how they physically remove people from the country now though and how people are processed. Again I think the actions going on recently are deplorable. There is an issue though and it’s the catalyst for peoples current actions.

Dave!

Point well made

I wonder where people get this dodgy information and organised the riots ?

Is it just the Facebook pages of local areas or something more nefarious ?

Dave!

Mito Man wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 10:31 pm

Gavster wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 10:26 pm

DeskJockey wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2024 9:55 pm I thought I did make a very clear point. There's no such thing as "illegal immigration". There's types of immigration that is disliked or frowned upon for various reasons, and the method by which people arrive may be illegal, but the immigration itself isn't an illegal activity, just as there's no "illegal immigrants" either.

I was under the impression that (and I'm sure this applies to most countries) if you rock up on a boat without a passport or visa, you don't pass through border control and you don't seek asylum after arriving, then you are illegally residing in that country.

Same, it’s the first bullet point on the ‘Illegal Migraction Act’
https://www.gov.uk/government/collecti ... ation-bill

Interesting point on this specific line, which I guess is the one you mean:

put a stop to illegal migration into the UK by removing the incentive to make dangerous small boat crossings

Oh, that's the one that effectively tars all people entering the UK via irregular routes as not able to claim asylum, in direct contravention of the 1951 UN Refugee convention, which we helped write, and which we've been a signatory on for 70 years?

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases ... ffice-warn

Most people fleeing war and persecution either do not have or are unable to access formal documents such as passports and visas. Safe and “legal” routes are rarely available to them. The 1951 Refugee Convention, for its part, explicitly recognises that refugees may be compelled to enter a country of asylum irregularly.

Signatories literally cannot do that - blanket refuse all asylum claims via the one feasible route that you've left available to people, because you closed off almost all others - without being in breach of the convention, which isn't generally good for international relations with the countries who we've specified must sign up to it for us to trade with them and vice versa.

Yeah, don't assume that anything the Tories put into power means anything - a lot of it is getting stripped back for being bonkers, unworkable, or bonkers unworkable.

But isn’t the whole point that the country they were in prior to the UK was already safe and thus the asylum claim should be processed in France?

V8Granite wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 12:37 am I wonder where people get this dodgy information and organised the riots ?

Is it just the Facebook pages of local areas or something more nefarious ?

Dave!

It was only a few years ago that Farage was literally asking people to find out if hotels local to them were housing asylum seekers - and we don't know who these people are, they could be ISIS terrorists capable of despicable acts, etc - and to tell them (UKIP, Reform, Nigel Farage Official Facebook, whoever) which hotels they were in, in the video comments.

No I'm not joking.



So, er.....

On a less conspiratorial note, it's likely being organised by former EDL splinter groups via whatsapp and telegram, but a lot of them get their info from the upper fringes of the right wing culture war lot - the more nazi-sympathiser side of things - plenty of whom if you climb far enough up the ladder, have ties to Russia. A country who have been quite happy to admit that social unrest in the UK, EU and US is one of their goals.

It fits together quite nicely, but probably too nicely for it to be the whole truth.

It’s still all not going to fix an issue people are worried about. It lets these people doing the rioting legitimise it in their own heads and make it far worse.

Just saying what’s happening is wrong and arresting the rioters, although the right thing to do will just kick the cam down the road to how people are feeling.

I wonder if people thought labour would come in and make a genuine change, then when again they didn’t think their voices were heard it ended in this. People will be willing to accept this happening if they think it may have their worrries listened to properly.

This will be bubbling under the surface continuously till something is done. Farage is their only voice and that’s a very sad state of affairs.

Dave!

Mito Man wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 1:03 am But isn’t the whole point that the country they were in prior to the UK was already safe and thus the asylum claim should be processed in France?

Yeah, we could do that....when we were in the EU.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/mi ... 65228.html

Fuckin' whoops, eh?

No that doesn’t change anything, once they land that’s it, they don’t want to be in France at all so they don’t do anything official there, they just travel over.

Dave!