Bye bye Theresa

[Swervin_Mervin]

Thick, old or racist. I'll let Leave voters place themselves within that Venn diagram wherever they feel is appropriate.

Nope

https://www.politico.eu/article/graphic ... l-results/

And?

[V8Granite]

I'll answer this one and prepare to be called a racist

The town where I live and grew up was a lovely mix of race, cultures, people and it worked really well. In my class in primary school we had Irish, Polish, A Chinese girl, Indian, a chap from Pakistan and a Jamaican boy. It was a nice place to live and as much as I love the area I live now (9 miles from Peterborough) there is nowhere near the same kind of mix.

It was a town where there was an influx of workers in the late 70's, my parents included due to a lot of growth and opportunities. This is why lots of people came over, they wanted a piece of the pie and worked for it, everyone was enjoying the growth (I think Peterborough was the fasting growing town in the country for a long while).

All the way through secondary school I never saw any issues with race, segregation or anything pointing towards a problem with people of different races. Around 2000 ish just after starting work you could see the town split up. My Mum worked in an industry with a high turnover of staff as it was non skilled labour and the day to day problems she had to deal with. From angry workers demanding she did their paperwork to send child allowance abroad, to disputes between the Indians and Pakistan workers etc. Things started to change, the influx was not controlled and we now have Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian etc areas. The areas I used to regularly walk for a beer are full of aggressive types, on a night in Town it's basically Eastern European night in one area, Asian night in another and there is regular trouble.

My opinion is that it turned from a place to grab an opportunity to a place to sponge from. I believe this was solely down to un-checked immigration that should have been stopped a long time before. You can come from any country, any race, religion and even be a bit brown, I couldn't give a crap but unless you enrich, improve or in some way arrive for the better (that doesn't mean to not take more than you put in, improving somewhere takes many forms) then come on over.

If there was a 10% chance we would change how we control our borders to start to reverse what I see as the problem then I'd vote for leave and I stand by my vote still. I have absolutely no idea how this could be achieved but I felt sure that staying in Europe would not improve things one single bit.

Where I live is widely known as PeterBosnia for a reason and not a good one, it's turned into a piece of crap I avoid if possible now and I had a very enjoyable childhood growing up there.

Now, if that's not good enough I better go back to Wog tipping, Paki bashing and see if I can find any of those little brown buggers too.

Dave!

[Zonda_]

We always had border controls, the government just choose not to use them. Statement from PM at 3.30 btw,

[JLv3.0]

I'll answer this one and prepare to be called a racist

The town where I live and grew up was a lovely mix of race, cultures, people and it worked really well. In my class in primary school we had Irish, Polish, A Chinese girl, Indian, a chap from Pakistan and a Jamaican boy. It was a nice place to live and as much as I love the area I live now (9 miles from Peterborough) there is nowhere near the same kind of mix.

It was a town where there was an influx of workers in the late 70's, my parents included due to a lot of growth and opportunities. This is why lots of people came over, they wanted a piece of the pie and worked for it, everyone was enjoying the growth (I think Peterborough was the fasting growing town in the country for a long while).

All the way through secondary school I never saw any issues with race, segregation or anything pointing towards a problem with people of different races. Around 2000 ish just after starting work you could see the town split up. My Mum worked in an industry with a high turnover of staff as it was non skilled labour and the day to day problems she had to deal with. From angry workers demanding she did their paperwork to send child allowance abroad, to disputes between the Indians and Pakistan workers etc. Things started to change, the influx was not controlled and we now have Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian etc areas. The areas I used to regularly walk for a beer are full of aggressive types, on a night in Town it's basically Eastern European night in one area, Asian night in another and there is regular trouble.

My opinion is that it turned from a place to grab an opportunity to a place to sponge from. I believe this was solely down to un-checked immigration that should have been stopped a long time before. You can come from any country, any race, religion and even be a bit brown, I couldn't give a crap but unless you enrich, improve or in some way arrive for the better (that doesn't mean to not take more than you put in, improving somewhere takes many forms) then come on over.

If there was a 10% chance we would change how we control our borders to start to reverse what I see as the problem then I'd vote for leave and I stand by my vote still. I have absolutely no idea how this could be achieved but I felt sure that staying in Europe would not improve things one single bit.

Where I live is widely known as PeterBosnia for a reason and not a good one, it's turned into a piece of crap I avoid if possible now and I had a very enjoyable childhood growing up there.

Now, if that's not good enough I better go back to Wog tipping, Paki bashing and see if I can find any of those little brown buggers too.

Dave!

All of that is regrettable. Now - using nice short words, how does Brexit fix that?

[V8Granite]

All of that is regrettable, and it's not racism if it's not true.

Now - using nice short words, how does Brexit fix that?

I can only see us having tighter border controls without Europe being involved, so to me that says stop being part of Europe.

Also, with the rise in hatred towards immigration, far right parties becoming more well known etc I don't think an agreement would be possible between so many countries wanting different things. Sweden is kicking off nicely, which I saw when working there, Mito (shudder) knows much more than I about Swedens problem.

Dave!

[V8Granite]

Nope

https://www.politico.eu/article/graphic ... l-results/

And?

So those that saw the transition between being in and out of Europe voted to leave.
Those with lower paid jobs generally more affected by an influx of workers voted leave.

I'd say that makes sense given how my area was affected.

Dave!

[Richard]

I'll answer this one and prepare to be called a racist

The town where I live and grew up was a lovely mix of race, cultures, people and it worked really well. In my class in primary school we had Irish, Polish, A Chinese girl, Indian, a chap from Pakistan and a Jamaican boy. It was a nice place to live and as much as I love the area I live now (9 miles from Peterborough) there is nowhere near the same kind of mix.

It was a town where there was an influx of workers in the late 70's, my parents included due to a lot of growth and opportunities. This is why lots of people came over, they wanted a piece of the pie and worked for it, everyone was enjoying the growth (I think Peterborough was the fasting growing town in the country for a long while).

All the way through secondary school I never saw any issues with race, segregation or anything pointing towards a problem with people of different races. Around 2000 ish just after starting work you could see the town split up. My Mum worked in an industry with a high turnover of staff as it was non skilled labour and the day to day problems she had to deal with. From angry workers demanding she did their paperwork to send child allowance abroad, to disputes between the Indians and Pakistan workers etc. Things started to change, the influx was not controlled and we now have Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian etc areas. The areas I used to regularly walk for a beer are full of aggressive types, on a night in Town it's basically Eastern European night in one area, Asian night in another and there is regular trouble.

My opinion is that it turned from a place to grab an opportunity to a place to sponge from. I believe this was solely down to un-checked immigration that should have been stopped a long time before. You can come from any country, any race, religion and even be a bit brown, I couldn't give a crap but unless you enrich, improve or in some way arrive for the better (that doesn't mean to not take more than you put in, improving somewhere takes many forms) then come on over.

If there was a 10% chance we would change how we control our borders to start to reverse what I see as the problem then I'd vote for leave and I stand by my vote still. I have absolutely no idea how this could be achieved but I felt sure that staying in Europe would not improve things one single bit.

Where I live is widely known as PeterBosnia for a reason and not a good one, it's turned into a piece of crap I avoid if possible now and I had a very enjoyable childhood growing up there.

Now, if that's not good enough I better go back to Wog tipping, Paki bashing and see if I can find any of those little brown buggers too.

Dave!

I wonder if this is a “foreigner” problem, or a “growing population” problem?

You could argue that immigration is the cause of both those problems, but I can’t imagine that immigration causes much population growth compared to the usual breeders

Maybe also, it’s a bit “better in the old days etc?

[ShockDiamonds]

Taken me nearly an hour to catch-up on this thread. Worth doing though.

I voted to leave. I so wish I hadn't. Even though I've seen endless posts on Facebook regarding the things we've lost since joining the EU, I cannot image we're alone in that and we've equally gained, too.

Looking back, my memory suggests the information I had available at the time (which represents all which I was able to amass and understand at the time, considering how busy life is and the fact that Brexit, as a thing, occupied my mind along with probably 200 other items) persuaded me to vote leave. My honest view at the time? I think I thought the UK needed to go it alone. Remember, that was the view based on what I'd heard, read, talked about etc along with 200 other things going in my life at the time. I didn't have the time to spend 2 days solid going over all the arguments. And in any case, I never remember receiving anything through the post to even prompt that argument, one way or another. I remember a strange campaign in many ways, on TV all the time, politicians at it constantly, but actual information being thin on the ground, no obvious canvassing, all very distant.

As stupid as it sounds, given the grave importance of it, I voted leave because it almost came down a coin toss, based on what little info I had been fed (yes, really) and that which I'd been able to find for myself (very little). And probably, if I'm honest, unconscious bias or something akin to it, informed by my upbringing and general environment. My parents, bless them, were never very forward thinking or progressive. Old fashioned, basically. So I defaulted to type when asked to vote in the absence of anything convincing to the contrary. Probably the only time my gut feeling has been wrong. And it's not the case that I always followed my father, for example, a strong character in the family home, growing up. He always voted Labour. I've always voted Conservative.

None of that helps, although one wonders how many countless thousands 40-somethings were in the same boat. The comment about educated types not being the ones chanting "leave, leave, leave" is spot on. I wasn't convinced when I voted. I was even less convinced the morning after. And now I know it's the worst decision I've ever made.

[NotoriousREV]

The referendum was fought on empty rhetoric by both sides. Remain failed to put forward any cogent arguments to dispel the myths being spread the likes of UKIP etc., nor did they target those in the middle who probably followed the same coin toss approach. I don't blame anyone for how they voted but I just think that given everything we've learned in the last 2 years, if you still strongly want Leave and you can't pull together a logical argument that even begins to explain the benefits, then you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror.

I even entertained the idea of voting Leave myself up to the last couple of weeks before the Ref, but in the end I didn't feel it stacked up at all and that the very best deal we could have is the one we have now.

- We are not in Schengen so we control our borders
- We are not in the Euro so we control our money
- We have the power of veto
- We have a rebate on what we pay in
- We are as influential in the EU as France or Germany
- We are part of the customs union
- We are sovereign as proven by today's decision

What more could you possibly want?

[V8Granite]

I wonder if this is a “foreigner” problem, or a “growing population” problem?

You could argue that immigration is the cause of both those problems, but I can’t imagine that immigration causes much population growth compared to the usual breeders

Maybe also, it’s a bit “better in the old days etc?

Definitely a "Foreigner" problem and also the type of foreigner, groups in houses as apposed to families settling etc.

Dave!

[Rich B]

As stupid as it sounds, given the grave importance of it, I voted leave because it almost came down a coin toss, based on what little info I had been fed (yes, really) and that which I'd been able to find for myself (very little).

Massively stupid. If you don’t understand what you’re voting to change to, then don’t vote to change to it.

[NotoriousREV]

I wonder if this is a “foreigner” problem, or a “growing population” problem?

You could argue that immigration is the cause of both those problems, but I can’t imagine that immigration causes much population growth compared to the usual breeders

Maybe also, it’s a bit “better in the old days etc?

Definitely a "Foreigner" problem and also the type of foreigner, groups in houses as apposed to families settling etc.

Dave!

Exactly what was said about Blacks from Jamaica and those from India and Pakistan in the 70s and 80s.

[Jobbo]

The referendum was fought on empty rhetoric by both sides. Remain failed to put forward any cogent arguments to dispel the myths being spread the likes of UKIP etc., nor did they target those in the middle who probably followed the same coin toss approach. I don't blame anyone for how they voted but I just think that given everything we've learned in the last 2 years, if you still strongly want Leave and you can't pull together a logical argument that even begins to explain the benefits, then you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror.

I even entertained the idea of voting Leave myself up to the last couple of weeks before the Ref, but in the end I didn't feel it stacked up at all and that the very best deal we could have is the one we have now.

- We are not in Schengen so we control our borders
- We are not in the Euro so we control our money
- We have the power of veto
- We have a rebate on what we pay in
- We are as influential in the EU as France or Germany
- We are part of the customs union
- We are sovereign as proven by today's decision

What more could you possibly want?

Is the moon available, on a stick?

[NotoriousREV]

The referendum was fought on empty rhetoric by both sides. Remain failed to put forward any cogent arguments to dispel the myths being spread the likes of UKIP etc., nor did they target those in the middle who probably followed the same coin toss approach. I don't blame anyone for how they voted but I just think that given everything we've learned in the last 2 years, if you still strongly want Leave and you can't pull together a logical argument that even begins to explain the benefits, then you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror.

I even entertained the idea of voting Leave myself up to the last couple of weeks before the Ref, but in the end I didn't feel it stacked up at all and that the very best deal we could have is the one we have now.

- We are not in Schengen so we control our borders
- We are not in the Euro so we control our money
- We have the power of veto
- We have a rebate on what we pay in
- We are as influential in the EU as France or Germany
- We are part of the customs union
- We are sovereign as proven by today's decision

What more could you possibly want?

Is the moon available, on a stick?

What kind of stick do you want?

[Jobbo]

A red, white and blue one please.

[NotoriousREV]

A red, white and blue one please.

Done.

[dinny_g]

You're not wrong Rev...

Problem is that the "empty rhetoric" on the Remain side (that you refer to above) has been left largely unchallenged and so all the problems we've seen with achieving the actual Leaving of the EU are being compared to a view of the Utopia of the European Union which also, isn't really true.

For example, the viewpoint that we can expect the exact same rights in any other European Community country as we do at home (oft quoted on Facebook by younger folks) simply isn't true (Work Permits needing regular renewing in Europe vs NI issuing here for example). Free access to health care, just like the NHS (erm - Nope, not the case) etc. etc.

I voted to leave but if there's another referendum, I wouldn't vote leave again. I think I just wouldn't cast a vote this time because I made my choice but it seems impossible to achieve.

Why the hell didn't they make it a requirement to have a "2/3's majority needed to leave" type scenario is beyond me.

Oh and I know where I am in the Venn diagram...

[NotoriousREV]

I didn't think you were that old, Dinny?

[Zonda_]

Taken me nearly an hour to catch-up on this thread. Worth doing though.

I voted to leave. I so wish I hadn't. Even though I've seen endless posts on Facebook regarding the things we've lost since joining the EU, I cannot image we're alone in that and we've equally gained, too.

Looking back, my memory suggests the information I had available at the time (which represents all which I was able to amass and understand at the time, considering how busy life is and the fact that Brexit, as a thing, occupied my mind along with probably 200 other items) persuaded me to vote leave. My honest view at the time? I think I thought the UK needed to go it alone. Remember, that was the view based on what I'd heard, read, talked about etc along with 200 other things going in my life at the time. I didn't have the time to spend 2 days solid going over all the arguments. And in any case, I never remember receiving anything through the post to even prompt that argument, one way or another. I remember a strange campaign in many ways, on TV all the time, politicians at it constantly, but actual information being thin on the ground, no obvious canvassing, all very distant.

As stupid as it sounds, given the grave importance of it, I voted leave because it almost came down a coin toss, based on what little info I had been fed (yes, really) and that which I'd been able to find for myself (very little). And probably, if I'm honest, unconscious bias or something akin to it, informed by my upbringing and general environment. My parents, bless them, were never very forward thinking or progressive. Old fashioned, basically. So I defaulted to type when asked to vote in the absence of anything convincing to the contrary. Probably the only time my gut feeling has been wrong. And it's not the case that I always followed my father, for example, a strong character in the family home, growing up. He always voted Labour. I've always voted Conservative.

None of that helps, although one wonders how many countless thousands 40-somethings were in the same boat. The comment about educated types not being the ones chanting "leave, leave, leave" is spot on. I wasn't convinced when I voted. I was even less convinced the morning after. And now I know it's the worst decision I've ever made.

I have spoken to so many other leave voters who now say the same thing. That's why it either needs cancelling completely or another referendum.

[dinny_g]

Anyway, I' must do some research to back up / debunk my feeling that we're not as influential in the Eu as we think. There must be statistics available on Tabled Amendments vs Approved Amendments etc.

The Veto's on it's way out by the way...