OV9

SIC

Opening with it made that mail reek of desperation and amateurishness. I'm surprised it didn't end with "reach out to ourself's".

Not sure what colour this was and it wouldn’t be my choice but they do look fantastic. Mrs thought it was a McLaren.

IanF wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 9:23 am I saw a dark red one yesterday and thought, if they’d made it a 2+2, I’d have bought one. Everyone, even my parents, like the look of it; so why aren’t they selling!?

For many it falls into "I like them but I'd never buy one" category. Social media is still awash with the old 'Lots of Trouble, Usually Serious' trope, and the NCG's who got £80k to spend will 99% of the time buy a Porsche because....it's a Porsche and the defacto standard of what you buy when you're not into cars but have money.

TBH at the rate things are going they'll be dropping into my budget at Christmas!

I was idly messing with the new colours available on their configuration, and (predictably) wanted to see what a white with full black pack looks. I did wibble a bit.

Looks nice, but it's a pretty uninspiring set of colours IMO. I guess they're saving all the best Lotus colours for the special additions.

Matty wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:46 am

IanF wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 9:23 am I saw a dark red one yesterday and thought, if they’d made it a 2+2, I’d have bought one. Everyone, even my parents, like the look of it; so why aren’t they selling!?

For many it falls into "I like them but I'd never buy one" category. Social media is still awash with the old 'Lots of Trouble, Usually Serious' trope, and the NCG's who got £80k to spend will 99% of the time buy a Porsche because....it's a Porsche and the defacto standard of what you buy when you're not into cars but have money.

TBH at the rate things are going they'll be dropping into my budget at Christmas!

I won’t take that personally!

Ian is on the money though - for a lot of people they will want two seats in the back otherwise I guess they’d default to a lightly used exige for that sort of money if they’re after a two seat lotus.

I mean they are a nice looking thing and the interior (which previously would have been a big negative factor for me) has been much improved, but lack of rear seats means it is a pure toy that would very rarely get used if you have kids.

mik wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:25 am

She sits so nicely. Not seen the design of wheel before.

240PP wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:45 am

mik wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:25 am

She sits so nicely. Not seen the design of wheel before.

I've taken some different decisions. I think I like the Ethel Yellow with the lighter leather, non-racist roof and an automagical electrickery cog swapper.



Now I just need to find £1,000 per month.

GG. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:39 am
I won’t take that personally!

Porsche are perceived as a luxury brand. Like Ferrari. Or Rolex.

This means their owners are as likely to be wealthy non-enthusiasts as they are genuine driving (or horology) enthusiasts like you.

mik wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:25 am I was idly messing with the new colours available on their configuration, and (predictably) wanted to see what a white with full black pack looks. I did wibble a bit.

all the better with the silver wheels too.

I’ve been up and down the configurator and I can’t make it look great. Still, I seem to remember them being stunning at Goodwood last year so maybe better in the flesh.

Are they not selling or is Lotus unable to build? Or both?

GG. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:39 am

Matty wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:46 am

IanF wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2023 9:23 am I saw a dark red one yesterday and thought, if they’d made it a 2+2, I’d have bought one. Everyone, even my parents, like the look of it; so why aren’t they selling!?

For many it falls into "I like them but I'd never buy one" category. Social media is still awash with the old 'Lots of Trouble, Usually Serious' trope, and the NCG's who got £80k to spend will 99% of the time buy a Porsche because....it's a Porsche and the defacto standard of what you buy when you're not into cars but have money.

TBH at the rate things are going they'll be dropping into my budget at Christmas!

I won’t take that personally!

Ian is on the money though - for a lot of people they will want two seats in the back otherwise I guess they’d default to a lightly used exige for that sort of money if they’re after a two seat lotus.

It's not knock - the Cayman's and 911's are class leaders for a reason, but as Mik says they're a luxury brand and attract that market as much as they do enthusiasts. Thankfully for Porsche, wealthy non-car people are a far bigger market than car nerds.

I get what Ian's saying, if they'd have made it a +2 it would have carved a niche between the Cayman and the 911...although that never really saved the Evora either.

Matty wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 2:40 pm

GG. wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:39 am

Matty wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:46 am

For many it falls into "I like them but I'd never buy one" category. Social media is still awash with the old 'Lots of Trouble, Usually Serious' trope, and the NCG's who got £80k to spend will 99% of the time buy a Porsche because....it's a Porsche and the defacto standard of what you buy when you're not into cars but have money.

TBH at the rate things are going they'll be dropping into my budget at Christmas!

I won’t take that personally!

Ian is on the money though - for a lot of people they will want two seats in the back otherwise I guess they’d default to a lightly used exige for that sort of money if they’re after a two seat lotus.

It's not knock - the Cayman's and 911's are class leaders for a reason, but as Mik says they're a luxury brand and attract that market as much as they do enthusiasts. Thankfully for Porsche, wealthy non-car people are a far bigger market than car nerds.

I get what Ian's saying, if they'd have made it a +2 it would have carved a niche between the Cayman and the 911...although that never really saved the Evora either.

I was only kidding - I get what you're saying.

The unfortunate reality of it though is that to be really successful, it cannot be that you just produce a good car in isolation - you need a healthy brand too and for all Lotus had incredible glory days with F1 back in the day, now they are a legacy name struggling to survive with a limited model selection, a small number of dealers and which still exudes the feeling of a marque playing its last hand in an effort to dodge insolvency.

People find that off putting even if they like the car. Trust me, I'd love to have the option of a British equivalent to a 911 but I would have some reservations about buying a car from a manufacturer which may not be here in 5 years. I also very much dislike the Lotus approach of taking bits off the shelf (e.g. the Toyota engines) and fettling them rather than developing their own. I know it is a necessity to make the numbers add up but that doesn't give me a fuzzy feeling about the cars generally. Same with McLaren, which is why I'd buy an equivalent Ferrari given the choice...

Which parts of a McLaren are off the shelf from other manufacturers?

I was referring to their engines, which isn't quite fair as although they're originally based on a Nissan design, that engine was originally made for racing use only so its not exactly like they've just dropped in an RB26. Nevertheless they took an old Japanese design from the 80s, updated it and have it made for them by Ricardo rather than manufacturing it themselves, which is what Ferrari do.

GG. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 12:24 pm I was referring to their engines, which isn't quite fair as although they're originally based on a Nissan design, that engine was originally made for racing use only so its not exactly like they've just dropped in an RB26. Nevertheless they took an old Japanese design from the 80s, updated it and have it made for them by Ricardo rather than manufacturing it themselves, which is what Ferrari do.

That's some epic hair splitting isn't it GG. Bit like the evolution of a Beetle engine in your 911.

I don't think that McLaren using Ricardo is anything other than positive.

Prof Porsche did at least design that engine though (though, ahem, may have stolen the Beetle;s overall design from Matra *cough*)!!

Anyway, look - we're going off down a bit of a rabbit hole. My fundamental point is that there is more engineering honesty in the Ferrari approach than the McLaren. Its their engine, they design and build it and have money to develop it. None of which apply to what McLaren are doing and I'd prefer the Ferrari in part for that reason.

I also very much dislike Porsche's approach of using lots of VW group engines in their non sports cars, however, so I'm not closing my eyes to that. The biggest offenders are people like Lamborghini with the Urus though which is just a Q8 underneath. I would never buy one for that reason (irrespective of that fact that they're pig ugly chav wagons).

Well I for one would never pay more than £100k for a McLaren F1 because the engine is from a BMW. In fact, I would also shun a Zonda because it has an S-class Merc engine.

Ferrari’s long term habit of using Fiat Uno/Jeep switchgear totally destroys the impression that they are bespoke

Yes yes, there are lots of exceptions. I agree.

We're talking about relatively mass produced cars though - not bespoke hypercars.

Yes, but if bespoke hypercars can have bought-in engines why can’t a more mass-produced supercar like a McLaren? Even though they don’t; that would be like calling a 1990 Rover V8 a Buick.