OV9

Beany wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:48 pm

DeskJockey wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:45 pm If only there was some political system that would make these black and white choices less troublesome.

Are we talking about Revs benevolent dictatorship? Again?

That's one option. I was suggesting PR though.

DeskJockey wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:45 pm If only there was some political system that would make these black and white choices less troublesome.

I think we're beyond hope on that one now. I mean at least there was always an outside chance of the 3rd party (lib dems) disrupting things but they were crucified for going back on 1 manifesto pledge and they've disappeared into total obscurity since.

That's why we need PR. It will allow the main parties to fragment into smaller, better defined units, and open parliament up to smaller parties.

This should, in average, mean coalitions which then tempers the worst excesses of majority single party governments.

DeskJockey wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:50 pm

Beany wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:48 pm

DeskJockey wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:45 pm If only there was some political system that would make these black and white choices less troublesome.

Are we talking about Revs benevolent dictatorship? Again?

That's one option. I was suggesting PR though.

Well, that's disappointing

PR is a fucking disaster - strangles countries into coalition’s which serve no-one.

dinny_g wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:59 pm PR is a fucking disaster - strangles countries into coalition’s which serve no-one.

Totally better than extremist governments - almost always right ring - who will push though populist right wing policies. I mean, did you see the shit around Brexit????

I mean, who'd want compromise rather an extremism in politics, eh?

dinny_g wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:59 pm PR is a fucking disaster - strangles countries into coalition’s which serve no-one.

No it isn't and doesn't.

I’m Irish so somewhat qualified to say yes it is and does.

E.g Proportional Representation has effectively killed the Green Party in Ireland

dinny_g wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:21 pm I’m Irish so somewhat qualified to say yes it is and does.

E.g Proportional Representation has effectively killed the Green Party in Ireland

I'm Danish and I'm somewhat qualified to say no it isn't and doesn't.

DeskJockey wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:24 pm

dinny_g wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:21 pm I’m Irish so somewhat qualified to say yes it is and does.

E.g Proportional Representation has effectively killed the Green Party in Ireland

I'm Danish and I'm somewhat qualified to say no it isn't and doesn't.

Look across Europe. Certainly seems that way from the outside. It just replaces one problem with another. Both systems are shit in reality.

The Danes are not the British... or the Irish...for that matter.

Politically speaking, a sign post is always preferable to a weather vane, even if the sign post is not pointing in the direction you want it to

dinny_g wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:29 pm The Danes are not the British... or the Irish...for that matter.

So are you saying that the British don't want to have their votes count in elections?

PR isn't perfect, nobody ever claimed that, but it is better than FPTP because a bigger proportion of the population's votes will count. By giving the the parties a realistic option of splitting without being immediately made irrelevant you're giving them the opportunity to remain faithful to their core principles and not having to pander to either extreme in their political spectrum.

As an added bonus coalitions work on compromise and pragmatism, just like the real world does. This tends to temper excess because even within government there are differences of opinion and people willing to hold others to account (not always, not perfectly, but a damn sight better than what we have now).

dinny_g wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:29 pm The Danes are not the British... or the Irish...for that matter.

Politically speaking, a sign post is always preferable to a weather vane, even if the sign post is not pointing in the direction you want it to

I disagree. It is an attempt at a simple solution to a complex problem and it never works well (or at all).

No I’m saying that the British and Irish are not great at compromising, are not that great at concessions. Look at how polarised Scottish Independence or Brexit became.

As groups of people, we don’t seem too keen to see the greater good. You’re either on the left - and so think the Tories are selling the National silverware so there “mates” can get rich. Or on the right and think Labour politicians are terrorist sympathisers who want to tax our second homes on Cornwall. Or a middle ground liberal who both the left and right think don’t count.

Of course this is an over the top characterisation of the extremes of political views and there are many thousands of educated sensible people of all coats who can be trusted to take make the right choices but political systems are based on the lowest common denominator and there are million a of Gammons and Anti-gammons who can’t.

I wish it were different but it just isn’t and to think this country could base its political system on a basis if compromise... well

I just don’t see it

dinny_g wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:29 pm The Danes are not the British... or the Irish...for that matter.

Politically speaking, a sign post is always preferable to a weather vane, even if the sign post is not pointing in the direction you want it to

Our current government seems to function by weather vane - leaking a policy, see how much criticism it gets, implement if popular. That’s with the biggest majority for over 30 years.

But that's a perfect case for PR. By not having to pander to the anti-/gammon crowd they can be truer to their core beliefs. The fringes can form their own parties and so be able to represent their voters, but may find that their influence had diminished as they're no longer able to use the threat of party unity as a weapon.

Either way, as I see it, there'll be a mellowing of the extreme positions and the constant blame game. That can only be a good thing. It would also make Britain a better democracy.

Jobbo wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:12 pm

dinny_g wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:29 pm The Danes are not the British... or the Irish...for that matter.

Politically speaking, a sign post is always preferable to a weather vane, even if the sign post is not pointing in the direction you want it to

Our current government seems to function by weather vane - leaking a policy, see how much criticism it gets, implement if popular. That’s with the biggest majority for over 30 years.

Is that not just a sign of the times and the power of celebrity/social media and momentum gathering?

Foz wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:29 am

Jobbo wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:12 pm

dinny_g wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:29 pm The Danes are not the British... or the Irish...for that matter.

Politically speaking, a sign post is always preferable to a weather vane, even if the sign post is not pointing in the direction you want it to

Our current government seems to function by weather vane - leaking a policy, see how much criticism it gets, implement if popular. That’s with the biggest majority for over 30 years.

Is that not just a sign of the times and the power of celebrity/social media and momentum gathering?

You could say that, or you could say it is a dereliction of their duty to take prudent, pragmatic decisions no matter how popular they are.

DeskJockey wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:28 am But that's a perfect case for PR. By not having to pander to the anti-/gammon crowd they can be truer to their core beliefs. The fringes can form their own parties and so be able to represent their voters, but may find that their influence had diminished as they're no longer able to use the threat of party unity as a weapon.

Either way, as I see it, there'll be a mellowing of the extreme positions and the constant blame game. That can only be a good thing. It would also make Britain a better democracy.

Scottish elections utilise PR and it seems to have worked fairly well.

The biggest problem with PR is that it effectively amplifies a fundamental problem with democracy - the people. Democracy is frequently described as the least shit system we can come up with, primarily because it relies on gathering popular support from a population poorly educated in the workings of economics, diplomacy, business and politics, with a tendency to prioritise personality over policy, short-term over long-term, single-issue over bigger-picture, and self over country.

The best democratic systems tend to find a way of dampening and moderating the whimsical and capricious nature of an ill-informed electorate whilst still being answerable to it, usually by including a secondarily elected or unelected element to act as a moderating force on the primarily elected element. PR does the opposite of this - it artificially shifts the balance of power towards populists, single-issue parties and short-termists.

Consider the last UK elections. In the 2019 European elections, the Brexit party won 31% of the popular vote, and it's not unreasonable to think the percentage vote could've been similar in the general election had there not been a deal done to not contest tory seats. A 31% share of the national vote for a party that had no manifesto or any stated policy on anything other than Brexit, and a leader who openly said that a vote for the Brexit party was one for him personally and policy would be made as he saw fit. Had that situation stood in a PR general election, the Brexit Party would've been by far the single largest party, and the country would be being run (albeit with some concessions to compromise) on Nigel Farage's whim.

Governments need to be answerable to the electorate, but electorates also need saving from themselves, or we'd all end up with Ant and fucking Dec in charge.