OV9

Yep well I don't think he's 'a racist' either, leaving aside how you could classify some of his comments we've just been talking about.

Populist is another matter entirely but we're creeping down the heirarchy of objectionable characteristics to where its just a difference in political outlook. Clegg was just as guilty of misleading statistics during the referendum campaign, actually released material arguing for a referendum on the EU before he got into government and lied and double dealed on tuition fees - I can't hear anyone stamping around calling him a populist. Funny that 'populists' tend to only ever be people on the right.

Nobody talks about Nick Clegg at all outside of sinking the Lib Dems .

A lot of people were very angry after he back tracked on the student fees stuff iirc.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:52 pm Do you really believe that's the case? The media lies to whip up a storm....etc etc

Yes I see it in the media and that's shameful, but my comments were based on one-to-one conversations with real people and personal accounts from non-british friends, which in many ways is far scarier.

My brother employs around 20 mostly polish builders in London, and the anecdotal reports from them are that the incidence of open in-your-face racism (i.e. "go back where you came from" etc etc) to either them or their families has increased from "occasionally" to "several times a week" since the vote. I know three who have gone back to Poland directly as a result of what they feel is an increasingly hostile environment.

My site manager (Croatian/German) was recently accosted in the street, accused of being Polish, told he "couldn't even speak the fucking language" (he speaks fluent English, Polish, Czech, and Russian, as well as Croatian and German), and was spat at. That shit hasn't been the norm since the 70s.

Personally, one of the things I find most noticeable is how much more emboldened those with already iffy views have become. e.g. Older folks who may have previously harbored such views now appear to feel free to spout forth to random strangers on how all the ills of the world are down to muslims. Middle class people in leafy Surrey who've only ever seen an immigrant from their Range Rover now feel legitimated in openly saying that "taking control of our borders" should be top of the government agenda. "Normal" businesspeople seemly now openly blaming economic shortcomings on "scrounging foreigners".

Racism is a red herring - most workers see their wage diluted by cheaper foreign labour - Nef above shows this to be the case.

Wages are depressed by cheap company bosses and a piss poor minimum wage.

Broccers wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:04 pm Racism is a red herring - most workers see their wage diluted by cheaper foreign labour - Nef above shows this to be the case.

And there's my point proved right there.

If you can read the above and say "yeah, perfectly understandable reaction" rather than "that's fucking abhorrent", you've just identified yourself.

ZedLeg wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:25 pm I didn't say little Englander I just said racist.

He's an unprincipled populist who'll say anything to get into a position of power, that's who every politician is.

Fixed that for ya...

Nefarious wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:15 pm

Broccers wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:04 pm Racism is a red herring - most workers see their wage diluted by cheaper foreign labour - Nef above shows this to be the case.

And there's my point proved right there.

If you can read the above and say "yeah, perfectly understandable reaction" rather than "that's fucking abhorrent", you've just identified yourself.

Nope. Been out today talking to real people Neil. One owns a specialist flooring company who said as a joiner he got 15 an hour now 8 is the norm the gap being 15 years. So that's not what you want to hear and people take the cheaper option like you seem to.

But Broccers, if people are unhappy with their wages, they can always get on a flight to Spain and just start working rhere...

I mean obviously after they jump the work permit hoop...every 3 month... permanently. Once they get their first permit, they can get get work... from a Spanish contractor who will be falling over themselves to give work to an English person over a Spanish one...

(Opinion based on real world experiences of English people I spoke to trying to live and work in Spain, one running a company trying to Employ Spanish people )

My best mate lives and works in Spain Dinny - its not that simple - he fits air con and recently had to do a 6 month course to get n.i.c.e to continue working - night school and an exam in Spanish. He also pays the tax to work each month. Real world shizzle. But nothing to do with brexit

Broccers wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:34 pm

Nefarious wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:15 pm

Broccers wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:04 pm Racism is a red herring - most workers see their wage diluted by cheaper foreign labour - Nef above shows this to be the case.

And there's my point proved right there.

If you can read the above and say "yeah, perfectly understandable reaction" rather than "that's fucking abhorrent", you've just identified yourself.

Nope. Been out today talking to real people Neil. One owns a specialist flooring company who said as a joiner he got 15 an hour now 8 is the norm the gap being 15 years. So that's not what you want to hear and people take the cheaper option like you seem to.

So a joiner you know is earning less than he used to. Whoopy fucking doo. That makes it all OK for people to spit racist abuse now does it?

TBH, you've made your position pretty clear. "I'm all up for brexit but don't feel comfortable discussing the reasons why"; "It's not racist if tradesmen are losing money"; "I speak to real people on the ground". Do you find yourself starting a lot of sentences with the words "I'm not a racist, but ...."?

Also, don't know what kind of joiner your mate is, but £8/hr is labourer's wages. Joiners in Edinburgh get £12-15. In London its £15+. Regardless of nationality. Real enough for you?

No Neil. You're on the wrong foot. I voted leave to regain control of the country I live in, a bit like you hinted you would too. The example I gave is from other people.

Nefarious wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:57 pm Also, don't know what kind of joiner your mate is, but £8/hr is labourer's wages. Joiners in Edinburgh get £12-15. In London its £15+. Regardless of nationality. Real enough for you?

You're right the wage is less. When you had no clue what they were 15 years ago but do now it's a big difference.

Just to be absolutely clear - you're sticking to the position that hostility to foreigners is OK because of perceived downward pressure on wages?

Broccers wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:02 pm

Nefarious wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:57 pm Also, don't know what kind of joiner your mate is, but £8/hr is labourer's wages. Joiners in Edinburgh get £12-15. In London its £15+. Regardless of nationality. Real enough for you?

You're right the wage is less. When you had no clue what they were 15 years ago but do now it's a big difference.

I've honestly no idea what you're trying to say. Your mate was a joiner, but now he's a labourer? I don't know what wages were 15 years ago? Wages have changed more in the last 15 years than the previous 15? Not a clue.

Broccers wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:47 pm My best mate lives and works in Spain Dinny - its not that simple - he fits air con and recently had to do a 6 month course to get n.i.c.e to continue working - night school and an exam in Spanish. He also pays the tax to work each month. Real world shizzle. But nothing to do with brexit

Yeah I know mate, that’s my point.

Person I know was a carpenter (female) who went to Spain to work. She needed to renew her work permit every 3 months. She can’t pay tax without a work permit. The work permit can only be applied for in a set 2’week period each quarter. Early and late applications are not considered. Even getting it to them on day 1 of the application period doesn’t guarantee you’ll get it in time to avoid emergency tax. Which you DONT get back.

She would budget €3k to €4K each year in lost tax.

The situation hasn’t changed despite now being married to a Spaniard, having 3 Spanish Kids, being granted permanent residency and now running her own company. Because despite being an EU citizen living in an EU member state, she’s not Spanish.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the EU is not the Utopia of equal treatment that many think it is.

Nefarious wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:08 pm

Broccers wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:02 pm

Nefarious wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:57 pm Also, don't know what kind of joiner your mate is, but £8/hr is labourer's wages. Joiners in Edinburgh get £12-15. In London its £15+. Regardless of nationality. Real enough for you?

You're right the wage is less. When you had no clue what they were 15 years ago but do now it's a big difference.

I've honestly no idea what you're trying to say

I'm saying you had no idea about wages 15 years ago in trades as you worked in IT. . I've no idea just listen to mates telling me who should know.

dinny_g wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:09 pm

Broccers wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:47 pm My best mate lives and works in Spain Dinny - its not that simple - he fits air con and recently had to do a 6 month course to get n.i.c.e to continue working - night school and an exam in Spanish. He also pays the tax to work each month. Real world shizzle. But nothing to do with brexit

Yeah I know mate, that’s my point.

Person I know was a carpenter (female) who went to Spain to work. She needed to renew her work permit every 3 months. She can’t pay tax without a work permit. The work permit can only be applied for in a set 2’week period each quarter. Early and late applications are not considered. Even getting it to them on day 1 of the application period doesn’t guarantee you’ll get it in time to avoid emergency tax. Which you DONT get back.

She would budget €3k to €4K each year in lost tax.

The situation hasn’t changed despite now being married to a Spaniard, having 3 Spanish Kids, being granted permanent residency and now running her own company. Because despite being an EU citizen living in an EU member state, she’s not Spanish.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the EU is not the Utopia of equal treatment that many think it is.

Fuck me don't agree with me you'll be ridiculed and called names

You're right.

The important post:

Nefarious wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:06 pm Just to be absolutely clear - you're sticking to the position that hostility to foreigners is OK because of perceived downward pressure on wages?