OV9

Posted: **Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:17 pm**

Today was my last day working on Thames Water projects, it will surprise nobody to learn that they are an absolute shower of cunts and I am delighted to walk away from it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 22, 2023 8:29 pm**

I know South Staffs can only make a very small profit legally.

So they sold their maintenance companies to themselves, outsource all the works to what used to be them and turn a profit that way.

Dave!

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:18 am**

Interesting polling which indicates not just a loss for the Tories at the next general election but a possible future permanent wipe-out.

Also indicates that rejoining the EU is highly likely - no timescale of course but the will is there.

Sorry it's Twitter; I can see it but maybe some can't?

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:09 pm**

Anyone who doesn't have a twitter account can't see anything but the initial tweet.

Edit: Also, ahahahahahahaha the right is eating itself and it's glorious.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:26 pm**

Politics is cyclical - no doubt they're heading for a long time in the doldrums but eventually, people will become dissatisfied with their lot under Labour and vote for change.

It's as certain as time and tide...

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:41 pm**

Tbh I don’t see anyone being a credible alternative at the moment either.

Just constantly shouting that everything they’re doing is wrong without a decent workable alternative suggestion isn’t a great opposition

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:48 pm**

dinny_g wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:26 pm Politics is cyclical - no doubt they're heading for a long time in the doldrums but eventually, people will become dissatisfied with their lot under Labour and vote for change.

It's as certain as time and tide...

Remember the Whigs? Parties do come to an end.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:51 pm**

All the parties are a drag race to the bottom. Who do I vote for that isn't a cunt, doesn't piss money up the wall, doesn't want to restrict movement, provides stability, doesn't force unnecessary hardship and net zero bollocks down my throat every 5 minutes.
I just see a turd in a red wrapper and a turd in a blue wrapper.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:21 pm**

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:48 pm
dinny_g wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:26 pm Politics is cyclical - no doubt they're heading for a long time in the doldrums but eventually, people will become dissatisfied with their lot under Labour and vote for change.

It's as certain as time and tide...
Remember the Whigs? Parties do come to an end.

No… but then again, I’m not 180 years old…

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:37 pm**

Mito Man wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:51 pm I just see a turd in a red wrapper and a turd in a blue wrapper.

And that's the problem. Even decent potential ministers of the future are going to be tarred with the same brush if they stick to the Tory/Labour party divide. Where there appears to be a genuine possibility of a party coming to the end of its natural life - and the Tory party does genuinely look like that as its voters die off and aren't replaced - there's an opportunity. I don't think the Lib Dems could step up and I fear that someone like Farage could rally a worse version of the Tories as a semi-viable party; but a slightly more socially-focussed alternative to the current Conservative party could attract many defectors from both Labour and Conservatives.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:46 pm**

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:37 pm
Mito Man wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:51 pm I just see a turd in a red wrapper and a turd in a blue wrapper.
And that's the problem. Even decent potential ministers of the future are going to be tarred with the same brush if they stick to the Tory/Labour party divide. Where there appears to be a genuine possibility of a party coming to the end of its natural life - and the Tory party does genuinely look like that as its voters die off and aren't replaced - there's an opportunity. I don't think the Lib Dems could step up and I fear that someone like Farage could rally a worse version of the Tories as a semi-viable party; but a slightly more socially-focussed alternative to the current Conservative party could attract many defectors from both Labour and Conservatives.

I wouldn't disagree with that. Sadly I'm not confident it will happen. I genuinely think the system has become so broken now that a PR-based system might actually have more pro's than con's. It might enable parties to becomes more focussed on what they want to appeal to, rather than the current 2 party system whereby both are trying to appeal to everyone, but appealing to no one as a result. It's clear with Starmer that he won't commit to anything in the run up to an election for fear that it will swing a group of potential voters away from them. See also the nonsense with the Cons refusing to provide clarity on HS2 Ph2b - they're just dangling a carrot to the Tory faithful whilst also not committing to bin it for fear of losing those pro-HS2.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:50 pm**

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:46 pm Sadly I'm not confident it will happen.

I agree - it's highly unlikely unless someone really good and motivated were to instigate it. But if the Tories implode after losing the next election then maybe it could. Fingers crossed.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:54 pm**

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:50 pm
Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:46 pm Sadly I'm not confident it will happen.
I agree - it's highly unlikely unless someone really good and motivated were to instigate it. But if the Tories implode after losing the next election then maybe it could. Fingers crossed.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 3:16 pm**

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:18 am Interesting polling which indicates not just a loss for the Tories at the next general election but a possible future permanent wipe-out.

Also indicates that rejoining the EU is highly likely - no timescale of course but the will is there.

Sorry it's Twitter; I can see it but maybe some can't?

Ah, but that was before Rishi promised no more 20mph zones!

.. now, if he can remove the current ones he’ll probably win the next GE!

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:12 pm**

duncs500 wrote: Fri Sep 22, 2023 6:17 pm Today was my last day working on Thames Water projects, it will surprise nobody to learn that they are an absolute shower of cunts and I am delighted to walk away from it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:38 pm**

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:46 pm
Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:37 pm
Mito Man wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:51 pm I just see a turd in a red wrapper and a turd in a blue wrapper.
And that's the problem. Even decent potential ministers of the future are going to be tarred with the same brush if they stick to the Tory/Labour party divide. Where there appears to be a genuine possibility of a party coming to the end of its natural life - and the Tory party does genuinely look like that as its voters die off and aren't replaced - there's an opportunity. I don't think the Lib Dems could step up and I fear that someone like Farage could rally a worse version of the Tories as a semi-viable party; but a slightly more socially-focussed alternative to the current Conservative party could attract many defectors from both Labour and Conservatives.
I wouldn't disagree with that. Sadly I'm not confident it will happen. I genuinely think the system has become so broken now that a PR-based system might actually have more pro's than con's. It might enable parties to becomes more focussed on what they want to appeal to, rather than the current 2 party system whereby both are trying to appeal to everyone, but appealing to no one as a result. It's clear with Starmer that he won't commit to anything in the run up to an election for fear that it will swing a group of potential voters away from them. See also the nonsense with the Cons refusing to provide clarity on HS2 Ph2b - they're just dangling a carrot to the Tory faithful whilst also not committing to bin it for fear of losing those pro-HS2.

PR is the only right answer. It is, as you well know, not without issues but it is the only democratic option. FPtP is not democratic.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:42 pm**

DeskJockey wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:38 pm
Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:46 pm
Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:37 pm
And that's the problem. Even decent potential ministers of the future are going to be tarred with the same brush if they stick to the Tory/Labour party divide. Where there appears to be a genuine possibility of a party coming to the end of its natural life - and the Tory party does genuinely look like that as its voters die off and aren't replaced - there's an opportunity. I don't think the Lib Dems could step up and I fear that someone like Farage could rally a worse version of the Tories as a semi-viable party; but a slightly more socially-focussed alternative to the current Conservative party could attract many defectors from both Labour and Conservatives.
I wouldn't disagree with that. Sadly I'm not confident it will happen. I genuinely think the system has become so broken now that a PR-based system might actually have more pro's than con's. It might enable parties to becomes more focussed on what they want to appeal to, rather than the current 2 party system whereby both are trying to appeal to everyone, but appealing to no one as a result. It's clear with Starmer that he won't commit to anything in the run up to an election for fear that it will swing a group of potential voters away from them. See also the nonsense with the Cons refusing to provide clarity on HS2 Ph2b - they're just dangling a carrot to the Tory faithful whilst also not committing to bin it for fear of losing those pro-HS2.
PR is the only right answer. It is, as you well know, not without issues but it is the only democratic option. FPtP is not democratic.

Democracy is not a fixed concept. Indeed what we know as democracy would be completely alien to the Ancient Greeks that coined the word. There is a sweet spot between "the most" democracy (i.e. something that is cleaner in correlating the individuals vote to it having a corresponding effect, i.e. PR) and the most effective functioning system of government. I'm not saying PR doesn't have its benefits but be careful what you wish for. At one point UKIP would have had 100 seats in parliament. PR would invigorate extreme parties at both ends of the spectrum and potentially encourage factionalism and pork barrel politics.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:49 pm**

GG. wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:42 pm
DeskJockey wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:38 pm
Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:46 pm

I wouldn't disagree with that. Sadly I'm not confident it will happen. I genuinely think the system has become so broken now that a PR-based system might actually have more pro's than con's. It might enable parties to becomes more focussed on what they want to appeal to, rather than the current 2 party system whereby both are trying to appeal to everyone, but appealing to no one as a result. It's clear with Starmer that he won't commit to anything in the run up to an election for fear that it will swing a group of potential voters away from them. See also the nonsense with the Cons refusing to provide clarity on HS2 Ph2b - they're just dangling a carrot to the Tory faithful whilst also not committing to bin it for fear of losing those pro-HS2.
PR is the only right answer. It is, as you well know, not without issues but it is the only democratic option. FPtP is not democratic.
Democracy is not a fixed concept. Indeed what we know as democracy would be completely alien to the Ancient Greeks that coined the word. There is a sweet spot between "the most" democracy (i.e. something that is cleaner in correlating the individuals vote to it having a corresponding effect, i.e. PR) and the most effective functioning system of government. I'm not saying PR doesn't have its benefits but be careful what you wish for. At one point UKIP would have had 100 seats in parliament.

I agree, but for better or worse, you're not going to see change or increased voter engagement until votes actually matter across the board. And the UKIP example is only relevant in the context of what is effectively a two party system where options are extremely limited. Remember the last time there was a significant shift was when labour came on the scene.

With more parties to vote for you'll hopefully get better representation, tempering the extremes, but at some cost to efficiency.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:16 pm**

DeskJockey wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:49 pm
GG. wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:42 pm
DeskJockey wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:38 pm

PR is the only right answer. It is, as you well know, not without issues but it is the only democratic option. FPtP is not democratic.
Democracy is not a fixed concept. Indeed what we know as democracy would be completely alien to the Ancient Greeks that coined the word. There is a sweet spot between "the most" democracy (i.e. something that is cleaner in correlating the individuals vote to it having a corresponding effect, i.e. PR) and the most effective functioning system of government. I'm not saying PR doesn't have its benefits but be careful what you wish for. At one point UKIP would have had 100 seats in parliament.
I agree, but for better or worse, you're not going to see change or increased voter engagement until votes actually matter across the board. And the UKIP example is only relevant in the context of what is effectively a two party system where options are extremely limited. Remember the last time there was a significant shift was when labour came on the scene.

With more parties to vote for you'll hopefully get better representation, tempering the extremes, but at some cost to efficiency.

The AfD have >10% of the seats in the Bundestag and they are surely equivalent to a UKIP and not in a two party system so you will almost certainly get more extreme MPs than you would otherwise. I just fear it would lead to even less effective decision making - I mean look what happens when you have a hung parliament - you're basically engineering that into the system.

Posted: **Fri Sep 29, 2023 6:26 pm**

You'll get extreme representation (look at what the Danish People's Party managed to do), but with PR you'll get likely get coalitions which by their nature should temper things. Not perfect, but nobody claimed that.

The solution to effective progress is to look at what other countries do. One example is the infrastructure commission in Denmark (and other equivalents elsewhere). They're apolitical and have as remit the long-term development of national infrastructure divorced from the election cycle. Still government funded though, but less of a hot potato.

OV9

Bye Bye Sunak..

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