OV9

Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:57 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:49 pm Again the question should be why the person is uncomfortable rather than putting the onus on the trans person to be different.

Trans people have used the facilities that match their gender for as long as they have existed (which, as far as we can tell is as long as people have existed).

Why are people suddenly being weird about it?

I’ve not got any real issue with toilets or changing rooms, but i’m not female so don’t really want to talk for them.

However, i don’t want to put my pronouns on my email or call myself cis though - surely that’s not an issue?

Of course it’s not. No one expects people to use cis in daily conversation. It’s mostly used to differentiate in discussions like this.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:59 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:57 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:55 pm Come on Swerve that’s just gross.

Which bit? My paraphrasing of what the Dr said? Which is what they said?

The borderline transphobic “proper women” just to wind me up was a bit of a cunt move.

It was - apologies. However, I don't like the use of the term cis, so not sure what else to use. Happy to use another term if one is available.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:00 pm

Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:57 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:49 pm Again the question should be why the person is uncomfortable rather than putting the onus on the trans person to be different.

Trans people have used the facilities that match their gender for as long as they have existed (which, as far as we can tell is as long as people have existed).

Why are people suddenly being weird about it?

I’ve not got any real issue with toilets or changing rooms, but i’m not female so don’t really want to talk for them.

However, i don’t want to put my pronouns on my email or call myself cis though - surely that’s not an issue?

Of course it’s not. No one expects people to use cis in daily conversation. It’s mostly used to differentiate in discussions like this.

But that’s already catered for with a word you seem comfortable using, so i presume i'm ok to use it too - trans.

If you’re discussing trans women and cis women and just start referring to women it gets confused.

Obviously you may not find this as you probably aren’t having the same conversations as me.

No one is going to arrest you for just saying women.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:01 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:59 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:57 pm

Which bit? My paraphrasing of what the Dr said? Which is what they said?

The borderline transphobic “proper women” just to wind me up was a bit of a cunt move.

It was - apologies. However, I don't like the use of the term cis, so not sure what else to use. Happy to use another term if one is available.

With all due respect, if you can’t discuss it without being a dick about it, maybe you shouldn’t.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:06 pm If you’re discussing trans women and cis women and just start referring to women it gets confused.

Obviously you may not find this as you probably aren’t having the same conversations as me.

No one is going to arrest you for just saying women.

i think the main issue is that the use of “cis” seems to be championed by the trans side of the debate - which just pisses people off and drives more of a divide imo.

I think the problem is that people think there are sides.

Trans people just want to live their lives and have no interest in being a political beating stick.

It’s the anti trans pressure groups that are keeping this bubbling over.

It’s scary out there for trans people just now.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:06 pm

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:01 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:59 pm

The borderline transphobic “proper women” just to wind me up was a bit of a cunt move.

It was - apologies. However, I don't like the use of the term cis, so not sure what else to use. Happy to use another term if one is available.

With all due respect, if you can’t discuss it without being a dick about it, maybe you shouldn’t.

Is there another term then or not? Otherwise it's just two opposing views with each calling the other out as being dicks. I thought much of what the Dr said in the court transcripts was them being a massive dick.

My views on it all aren't that extreme (imo obviously) - I'm actually fairly live and let live - but from your perspective I'm sure they would be considered that way.

But to get all the way back to the point originally raised by Duncs, this is clearly one area at least where a significant proportion of people (no idea whether it would be a majority obvs) do feel that they are being pushed to adhere to an accepted" approach that they're not happy to accept.

But again, if no one is willing to discuss why they feel that way without an argument, how are we supposed to resolve that?

Just forcing people back into the closet seems regressive.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:20 pm I think the problem is that people think there are sides.

Trans people just want to live their lives and have no interest in being a political beating stick.

It’s the anti trans pressure groups that are keeping this bubbling over.

You don’t think the extreme left have had a part to play in this? Demanding trans rights regarding bathrooms, for example, at the expense of women’s rights?

As Duncs has already said, baby steps were needed for change but they went all in aggressive and it’s fucked it up for everyone. So now people have got pissed off, voted without a level head and you now get people like Trump in charge.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:20 pm I think the problem is that people think there are sides.

Trans people just want to live their lives and have no interest in being a political beating stick.

It’s the anti trans pressure groups that are keeping this bubbling over.

It’s scary out there for trans people just now.

Yeah, it has clearly been blown out of all proportion. There clearly are “sides” in the extremes though - which social media LOVES.

240PP wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:32 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:20 pm I think the problem is that people think there are sides.

Trans people just want to live their lives and have no interest in being a political beating stick.

It’s the anti trans pressure groups that are keeping this bubbling over.

You don’t think the extreme left have had a part to play in this? Demanding trans rights regarding bathrooms, for example, at the expense of women’s rights?

As Duncs has already said, baby steps were needed for change but they went all in aggressive and it’s fucked it up for everyone. So now people have got pissed off, voted without a level head and you now get people like Trump in charge.

No, because they haven’t

As I said earlier, trans women have used the facilities that match their gender forever. It’s only become an issue over the last 10 years.

There’s been a concerted effort to demonise trans people and it’s apparently working.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:35 pm

240PP wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:32 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:20 pm I think the problem is that people think there are sides.

Trans people just want to live their lives and have no interest in being a political beating stick.

It’s the anti trans pressure groups that are keeping this bubbling over.

You don’t think the extreme left have had a part to play in this? Demanding trans rights regarding bathrooms, for example, at the expense of women’s rights?

As Duncs has already said, baby steps were needed for change but they went all in aggressive and it’s fucked it up for everyone. So now people have got pissed off, voted without a level head and you now get people like Trump in charge.

No, because they haven’t

As I said earlier, trans women have used the facilities that match their gender forever. It’s only become an issue over the last 10 years.

There’s been a concerted effort to demonise trans people and it’s apparently working.

I think there’s some truth to that, but then you have headlines made by people like Lia Thomas who make it into a huge issue that everyone can easily “pick a side” on.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:35 pm

240PP wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:32 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:20 pm I think the problem is that people think there are sides.

Trans people just want to live their lives and have no interest in being a political beating stick.

It’s the anti trans pressure groups that are keeping this bubbling over.

You don’t think the extreme left have had a part to play in this? Demanding trans rights regarding bathrooms, for example, at the expense of women’s rights?

As Duncs has already said, baby steps were needed for change but they went all in aggressive and it’s fucked it up for everyone. So now people have got pissed off, voted without a level head and you now get people like Trump in charge.

No, because they haven’t

That wasn’t predictable, at all

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:23 pm But again, if no one is willing to discuss why they feel that way without an argument, how are we supposed to resolve that?

Perhaps don't start with an attitude that you have to " coddle people because they read too much Daily Mail "

dinny_g wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:40 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:23 pm But again, if no one is willing to discuss why they feel that way without an argument, how are we supposed to resolve that?

Perhaps don't start with an attitude that you have to " coddle people because they read too much Daily Mail "

I said what I said.

240PP wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:40 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:35 pm

240PP wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:32 pm
You don’t think the extreme left have had a part to play in this? Demanding trans rights regarding bathrooms, for example, at the expense of women’s rights?

As Duncs has already said, baby steps were needed for change but they went all in aggressive and it’s fucked it up for everyone. So now people have got pissed off, voted without a level head and you now get people like Trump in charge.

No, because they haven’t

That wasn’t predictable, at all

I did explain why, not my fault if you don’t want to pay attention.

Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:38 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:35 pm

240PP wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:32 pm
You don’t think the extreme left have had a part to play in this? Demanding trans rights regarding bathrooms, for example, at the expense of women’s rights?

As Duncs has already said, baby steps were needed for change but they went all in aggressive and it’s fucked it up for everyone. So now people have got pissed off, voted without a level head and you now get people like Trump in charge.

No, because they haven’t

As I said earlier, trans women have used the facilities that match their gender forever. It’s only become an issue over the last 10 years.

There’s been a concerted effort to demonise trans people and it’s apparently working.

I think there’s some truth to that, but then you have headlines made by people like Lia Thomas who make it into a huge issue that everyone can easily “pick a side” on.

Lia Thomas didn’t make those headlines, Riley Gaines did. Thomas just wanted to swim, Gaines has made a decent career out of being a transphobe.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:43 pm

Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:38 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 4:35 pm

No, because they haven’t

As I said earlier, trans women have used the facilities that match their gender forever. It’s only become an issue over the last 10 years.

There’s been a concerted effort to demonise trans people and it’s apparently working.

I think there’s some truth to that, but then you have headlines made by people like Lia Thomas who make it into a huge issue that everyone can easily “pick a side” on.

Lia Thomas didn’t make those headlines, Riley Gaines did. Thomas just wanted to swim, Gaines has made a decent career out of being a transphobe.

This is where we’re going to end up having to pick sides then.

i think it was massively unfair for Thomas to compete in the women’s category, and it directly affected women who had a physical disadvantage through simply being born a woman.

So now i’m being pitched as anti-trans for having this opinion!

Do you think big and strong women shouldn’t be allowed to play sport with smaller women?