OV9

duncs500 wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:53 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:36 pm Perception is the key word there, can’t do much about ignorance if people don’t want to learn.

Alas if that perception is spread far and wide enough, that can become a destructive force whether real or imagined. It's a bit pointless to just dismiss it as a potential driver for some of the silliness we're seeing now because you don't like the idea that some people a perceiving something you don't agree with.

Anyway, I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about since you asked, which no doubt you'll shoot down, but hey-ho:

My wife's company recently forced a policy on all employees that they are not allowed to not express their pronouns on their email signatures. The reason for the policy is that someone who does wish to express their (perhaps less common garden) pronouns may feel more exposed due to it standing out next to another signature. That is an example of a policy that effectively steamrollers the vast majority to give support to more than likely a tiny minority. My wife preferred not to express her pronouns, but her preferences were not considered significant when devising the policy.

Not a big deal, but you multiply that kind of thing and it makes people feel like they're being ignored.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:57 pm

duncs500 wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:53 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:36 pm Perception is the key word there, can’t do much about ignorance if people don’t want to learn.

Alas if that perception is spread far and wide enough, that can become a destructive force whether real or imagined. It's a bit pointless to just dismiss it as a potential driver for some of the silliness we're seeing now because you don't like the idea that some people a perceiving something you don't agree with.

Anyway, I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about since you asked, which no doubt you'll shoot down, but hey-ho:

My wife's company recently forced a policy on all employees that they are not allowed to not express their pronouns on their email signatures. The reason for the policy is that someone who does wish to express their (perhaps less common garden) pronouns may feel more exposed due to it standing out next to another signature. That is an example of a policy that effectively steamrollers the vast majority to give support to more than likely a tiny minority. My wife preferred not to express her pronouns, but her preferences were not considered significant when devising the policy.

Not a big deal, but you multiply that kind of thing and it makes people feel like they're being ignored.

I personally agree with the policy that if everyone has their pronouns on their correspondence it makes it more comfortable for people who have chosen pronouns they would prefer others to use.

I wouldn’t make it policy that people have to though.

Why did your wife not want to put her pronouns in her sig?

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:55 pm I wrote that before I read yours

duncs500 wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:06 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:55 pm I wrote that before I read yours

There you go. But you do understand that many people do notice this stuff, disagree with it, talk about it with similar minded folk, perhaps reluctantly abide by it? Not everybody is a campaigning type and will just get pissed off in silence rather than having a meaningful debate, which can then breed resentment.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:57 pm Why did your wife not want to put her pronouns in her sig?

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:07 pm You’ve just done the worthy minority meme rich.

Allowing people to be different and fend for themselves inevitably leads to minorities being discriminated against. If it didn’t we would never have had to start using DEI in the first place.

Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:15 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:07 pm You’ve just done the worthy minority meme rich.

Allowing people to be different and fend for themselves inevitably leads to minorities being discriminated against. If it didn’t we would never have had to start using DEI in the first place.

Well everything’s got a meme or term in your eyes!

I’m all for DEI, id hate to do something that makes anyone feel uncomfortable. The issue i’m referring to though is the very specific act of requesting everyone else to do something they are uncomfortable with to make the minority more comfortable.

duncs500 wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:14 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:57 pm Why did your wife not want to put her pronouns in her sig?

I don't know really, because it seemed unnecessary I think.
She's a female, with a female name, and how often in conversation with the subject individual present does one actually use pronouns in any case?

If I meet a person called Dave wearing a dress and lipstick, I don't feel the need to call them anything other than Dave if I'm in a meeting with them.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:18 pm

Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:15 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:07 pm You’ve just done the worthy minority meme rich.

Allowing people to be different and fend for themselves inevitably leads to minorities being discriminated against. If it didn’t we would never have had to start using DEI in the first place.

Well everything’s got a meme or term in your eyes!

I’m all for DEI, id hate to do something that makes anyone feel uncomfortable. The issue i’m referring to though is the very specific act of requesting everyone else to do something they are uncomfortable with to make the minority more comfortable.

The worthy minority is a well known strawman mate.

It depends on what’s being asked imo.

Like, respecting someone’s pronouns or letting trans people use the bathroom where they feel comfortable harms no one. I’d say educating people about that makes more sense than marginalising the already marginalised.

duncs500 wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 2:53 pm My wife's company recently forced a policy on all employees that they are not allowed to not express their pronouns on their email signatures. The reason for the policy is that someone who does wish to express their (perhaps less common garden) pronouns may feel more exposed due to it standing out next to another signature. That is an example of a policy that effectively steamrollers the vast majority to give support to more than likely a tiny minority. My wife preferred not to express her pronouns, but her preferences were not considered significant when devising the policy.

Not a big deal, but you multiply that kind of thing and it makes people feel like they're being ignored.

Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:44 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:18 pm

Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:15 pm Well everything’s got a meme or term in your eyes!

I’m all for DEI, id hate to do something that makes anyone feel uncomfortable. The issue i’m referring to though is the very specific act of requesting everyone else to do something they are uncomfortable with to make the minority more comfortable.

The worthy minority is a well known strawman mate.

It depends on what’s being asked imo.

Like, respecting someone’s pronouns or letting trans people use the bathroom where they feel comfortable harms no one. I’d say educating people about that makes more sense than marginalising the already marginalised.

declaring something as a strawman doesn’t really make the issue go away though. The bathroom example is another good example though - if a trans woman using the women’s bathroom makes a woman uncomfortable, how is that any better?

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:49 pm Again the question should be why the person is uncomfortable rather than putting the onus on the trans person to be different.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:49 pm Again the question should be why the person is uncomfortable rather than putting the onus on the trans person to be different.

Trans people have used the facilities that match their gender for as long as they have existed (which, as far as we can tell is as long as people have existed).

Why are people suddenly being weird about it?

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:55 pm Come on Swerve that’s just gross.

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:57 pm

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 3:55 pm Come on Swerve that’s just gross.

Which bit? My paraphrasing of what the Dr said? Which is what they said?