Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:49 pm
That's insurance - which insurances do you pay VAT on?
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:50 pm
As far as I’m concerned private healthcare and schooling are luxuries and should be taxed as such.GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:45 pm What about private health then?
Where do you stop with ramping up taxes on things that have an overall benefit and reduce tax expenditure?
It's not going to help further the improvement of public services, its as simple as that.
Not everyone who uses them is wealthy but you also get people who scrimp and save to have a nice car. They still have to pay the taxes on running it.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:51 pm
Yeah but that person is not also paying taxes for a state provided car they don't want are they? Stupid analogy, despite the fact that I actually don't necessarily disagree with VAT on private school feesZedLeg wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:50 pmAs far as I’m concerned private healthcare and schooling are luxuries and should be taxed as such.GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:45 pm What about private health then?
Where do you stop with ramping up taxes on things that have an overall benefit and reduce tax expenditure?
It's not going to help further the improvement of public services, its as simple as that.
Not everyone who uses them is wealthy but you also get people who scrimp and save to have a nice car. They still have to pay the taxes on running it.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:51 pm
At what level though? As I said no system is perfect, but I can't see that waste is high. What I can see is that more and more is squeezed out. I'd listen to the professionals in the field that are crying enough.Swervin_Mervin wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:42 pmFor one - I didn't state that the state sector has nothing but issues - I said it was riddled with them There are many state schools which manage to operate successfully in spite of them being state sector. That's down to good governance. I'm not sure I see the relevance to this debate as to what the private sector achieve - it doesn't cost the taxpayer.DeskJockey wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:35 pmWell, you argue that state sector has nothing but issues, yet offer no criticism of the private sector. That suggests a rather blinkered view.Swervin_Mervin wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:28 pm
Where did I say that?
And see above regarding money. Money IS NOT the problem.
And, funding absolutely is the issue. When teachers have to pay for teaching supplies, when the school has to spend budget feeding children that don't get enough food at home, when they drop SEN provisions as too costly, when they can't recruit anyone to fill vacant posts (and this isn't just in education), then funding it a significant part of the issue.
We spend more than most developed countries on education, so funding is not the issue. Inefficient use of funds may well be - see most public sector problems, wastage is very high. Otherwise how do you explain how it is possible that many state sector schools are able to deliver excellent results?
Point about private sector is exactly that: it is not subject to public scrutiny in the same way, but we, the tax payers, end up funding things when they go wrong (private hospitals sending patients to the NHS as an example). However, you're right that there are exceptional institutions doing good work in the state sector, but without a detailed analysis we don't know why one succeeds over another. But, as a principle, I'd rather try to repair the state sector than fund the private.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:51 pm
This. No one is using private A&E.ZedLeg wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:50 pmAs far as I’m concerned private healthcare and schooling are luxuries and should be taxed as such.GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:45 pm What about private health then?
Where do you stop with ramping up taxes on things that have an overall benefit and reduce tax expenditure?
It's not going to help further the improvement of public services, its as simple as that.
Not everyone who uses them is wealthy but you also get people who scrimp and save to have a nice car. They still have to pay the taxes on running it.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:52 pm
No its not just 'insurance' - also a fundamental misunderstanding. Private hospitals charge fees, you can cover those via insurance or privately. If you charge VAT on the fees, the insurance will go up too as you've made everything 20% more expensive.
Again, surprised you don't know how this works to be honest.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:53 pm
And Merv. From what I've been told in the past, children with bursarys completed voluntary work at the place in question. Although I've found this online which suggests they are paid:GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:47 pm What do you mean by 'tied to the institution'?
Every school will decide the terms of its own bursaries - I've never heard of special conditions being attached.
"A bursary is a monetary award made by an institution to individuals or groups of people who cannot afford to pay full fees. In return for the bursary the individual is usually obligated to be employed at the institution for the duration as the bursary"
Perhaps I'm just wrong though.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:53 pm
As above - we've paid for state A&E and also all non-emergency services which we're then paying again for, privately.NotoriousREV wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:51 pmThis. No one is using private A&E.ZedLeg wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:50 pmAs far as I’m concerned private healthcare and schooling are luxuries and should be taxed as such.GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:45 pm What about private health then?
Where do you stop with ramping up taxes on things that have an overall benefit and reduce tax expenditure?
It's not going to help further the improvement of public services, its as simple as that.
Not everyone who uses them is wealthy but you also get people who scrimp and save to have a nice car. They still have to pay the taxes on running it.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:55 pm
Fuck knows what you're looking at but its not private school academic bursaries. You're looking at training bursaries granted by an employer in return for working there after you're trained.ShockDiamonds wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:53 pmAnd Merv. From what I've been told in the past, children with bursarys completed voluntary work at the place in question. Although I've found this online which suggests they are paid:GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:47 pm What do you mean by 'tied to the institution'?
Every school will decide the terms of its own bursaries - I've never heard of special conditions being attached.
"A bursary is a monetary award made by an institution to individuals or groups of people who cannot afford to pay full fees. In return for the bursary the individual is usually obligated to be employed at the institution for the duration as the bursary"
Perhaps I'm just wrong though.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:55 pm
If you make monthly payments for private health cover, that's insurance. What were you talking about if not that? That's what the term 'private health' means.GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:52 pmNo its not just 'insurance' - also a fundamental misunderstanding. Private hospitals charge fees, you can cover those via insurance or privately. If you charge VAT on the fees, the insurance will go up too as you've made everything 20% more expensive.
Again, surprised you don't know how this works to be honest.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:56 pm
You're choosing to do so. If you don't pay, you'll still get your treatment. You even still get your treatment if you haven't paid for it (kids, for example). Therefore, if you choose to pay, you should pay the VAT on it.GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:53 pmAs above - we've paid for state A&E and also all non-emergency services which we're then paying again for, privately.NotoriousREV wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:51 pmThis. No one is using private A&E.ZedLeg wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:50 pm
As far as I’m concerned private healthcare and schooling are luxuries and should be taxed as such.
Not everyone who uses them is wealthy but you also get people who scrimp and save to have a nice car. They still have to pay the taxes on running it.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:56 pm
I do listen to those who've worked within it - both health and education. There are many issues common to both (wastage of funds) and issues that are specific to each. Neither are resolved by chucking more money at it. It requires a wholesale culture change, and that's not going to happen because significant numbers of those employed in each public sector (and largely unionised) are the most resistant to change.DeskJockey wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:51 pmAt what level though? As I said no system is perfect, but I can't see that waste is high. What I can see is that more and more is squeezed out. I'd listen to the professionals in the field that are crying enough.Swervin_Mervin wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:42 pmFor one - I didn't state that the state sector has nothing but issues - I said it was riddled with them There are many state schools which manage to operate successfully in spite of them being state sector. That's down to good governance. I'm not sure I see the relevance to this debate as to what the private sector achieve - it doesn't cost the taxpayer.DeskJockey wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:35 pm
Well, you argue that state sector has nothing but issues, yet offer no criticism of the private sector. That suggests a rather blinkered view.
And, funding absolutely is the issue. When teachers have to pay for teaching supplies, when the school has to spend budget feeding children that don't get enough food at home, when they drop SEN provisions as too costly, when they can't recruit anyone to fill vacant posts (and this isn't just in education), then funding it a significant part of the issue.
We spend more than most developed countries on education, so funding is not the issue. Inefficient use of funds may well be - see most public sector problems, wastage is very high. Otherwise how do you explain how it is possible that many state sector schools are able to deliver excellent results?
Point about private sector is exactly that: it is not subject to public scrutiny in the same way, but we, the tax payers, end up funding things when they go wrong (private hospitals sending patients to the NHS as an example). However, you're right that there are exceptional institutions doing good work in the state sector, but without a detailed analysis we don't know why one succeeds over another. But, as a principle, is rather try to repair the state sector than fund the private.
Regarding schools, of those I'm aware of that are achieving excellent results, it's because they govern and teach in a similar manner to their private counterparts...
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:57 pm
So far GG's argument against paying VAT on private education appears to amount to "but other things don't attract VAT" and "It will cost me more personally".
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:57 pm
My god - no it doesn't. Private healthcare is any healthcare provision by a private operator. You can fund that out of your own pocket (if you're very wealthy), OR, by insurance cover from AXA, BUPA, etc.Jobbo wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:55 pmIf you make monthly payments for private health cover, that's insurance. What were you talking about if not that? That's what the term 'private health' means.GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:52 pmNo its not just 'insurance' - also a fundamental misunderstanding. Private hospitals charge fees, you can cover those via insurance or privately. If you charge VAT on the fees, the insurance will go up too as you've made everything 20% more expensive.
Again, surprised you don't know how this works to be honest.
Some of the insurers also run the private hospitals but that's by the by.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:58 pm
And its totally counterproductive - of course that's a pre-requisite for most of these Corbynite policies. Sounds like you're fully on board though mate so this argument is pretty pointless.NotoriousREV wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:57 pm So far GG's argument against paying VAT on private education appears to amount to "but other things don't attract VAT" and "It will cost me more personally".
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:00 pm
Just google the term "private health". It is insurance cover. If you are talking about the cost of running private hospitals, or paying for operations out of your own pocket on a one-off basis, that doesn't fall under the generally known term 'private health' - which you brought up.GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:57 pmMy god - no it doesn't. Private healthcare is any healthcare provision by a private operator. You can fund that out of your own pocket (if you're very wealthy), OR, by insurance cover from AXA, BUPA, etc.Jobbo wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:55 pmIf you make monthly payments for private health cover, that's insurance. What were you talking about if not that? That's what the term 'private health' means.GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:52 pm
No its not just 'insurance' - also a fundamental misunderstanding. Private hospitals charge fees, you can cover those via insurance or privately. If you charge VAT on the fees, the insurance will go up too as you've made everything 20% more expensive.
Again, surprised you don't know how this works to be honest.
Some of the insurers also run the private hospitals but that's by the by.
I'm surprised you don't understand this. Anyway, VAT on insurance, yeah?
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:01 pm
Congratulations - we've found a subject on which you're totally ill informed (and have taken to googling). Never mind.
Anyway the level of stupid in this thread is becoming a bit too much so I think I'll call it a day here.
Anyway the level of stupid in this thread is becoming a bit too much so I think I'll call it a day here.
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:02 pm
Ok calm downGG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:55 pmFuck knows what you're looking at but its not private school academic bursaries. You're looking at training bursaries granted by an employer in return for working there after you're trained.ShockDiamonds wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:53 pmAnd Merv. From what I've been told in the past, children with bursarys completed voluntary work at the place in question. Although I've found this online which suggests they are paid:GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:47 pm What do you mean by 'tied to the institution'?
Every school will decide the terms of its own bursaries - I've never heard of special conditions being attached.
"A bursary is a monetary award made by an institution to individuals or groups of people who cannot afford to pay full fees. In return for the bursary the individual is usually obligated to be employed at the institution for the duration as the bursary"
Perhaps I'm just wrong though.
If I'm wrong then I'm wrong but it is based on educational bursarys nothing else, but will leave this there. You seem to have enough on your plate.Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:02 pm
If wanting everyone to have equal access to high quality education and healthcare regardless of income or background is "Corbynite" then sign me the fuck up.GG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:58 pmAnd its totally counterproductive - of course that's a pre-requisite for most of these Corbynite policies. Sounds like you're fully on board though mate so this argument is pretty pointless.NotoriousREV wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:57 pm So far GG's argument against paying VAT on private education appears to amount to "but other things don't attract VAT" and "It will cost me more personally".
Re: Bye Bye Boris!
Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:02 pm
It is, but not from the source you think it isGG. wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:01 pm Anyway the level of stupid in this thread is becoming a bit too much so I think I'll call it a day here.