OV9

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:17 am

Jackleg wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:05 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:32 pm I want the Tories out but I don’t want this bunch of fucking losers in. Or the Lib Dems. I think we should just let Lizzie 2 take over and run it properly.

But then we'll also end up with Charlie in charge...

I'm seriously considering voting Green next time. I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of what they say. I'm not sure how well that goes with also wanting a V8 though.

The best thing they could do at this point is split, let Jeremy toddle off with momentum and have a new New Labour with the Blairites. I still wouldn't vote for either but at least they might actually do something.

NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:39 am It annoys me to see Centrist has become an actual insult these days (typically Centrist Dad) as that probably best describes my politics, and I think in reality probably describes the politics of the majority of people:

NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:39 am It annoys me to see Centrist has become an actual insult these days (typically Centrist Dad) as that probably best describes my politics, and I think in reality probably describes the politics of the majority of people:

- capitalism is good and has lifted more people out of poverty than any other economic system, but unfettered capitalism is bad if inequality becomes rampant
- I want a good free to use health care system
- the best free education in the world up to and including university/apprenticeships to give us the best educated and trained workforce we can have
- I want those out of work to be helped back into work by providing training and incentives
- I want those who can't work to be looked after
- I want our old folks looking after
- I'm happy to pay more tax to provide those things as long as the money is spent efficiently
- I want our police to be well funded and focussing on crimes that impact the community most
- I want equality of opportunity for all (but not equality of outcome)
- I want a free press that has absolute free speech but that uses that right responsibly instead of the utter shitbuckets we have now
- Where's my fucking unicorn? It had better be fetching me the moon on a stick.

Richard wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:59 am They all do and would do broadly the same thing when in charge. Their hands are tied by so many factors

GG. wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:31 am
Do what? Cast themselves into oblivion? Neither of those rumps would carry enough votes to get elected. Perhaps in times gone by the Blairite moderates (if there were enough of them) would perhaps manage a coalition with the lib dems but those days are over with the lib dems a diminished force nowadays.

Thing is, the whole point of entryist trots like Mcdonnell and Corbyn is that they wrest control of the head of a larger body allowing them access to votes they would otherwise never have. They won't split off and the average rank and file MP won't either as they're directionless minnows without any party affiliation and would lose their seat in the next election against the replacement Labour candidate.

A split like the SDP/Lab division of the 80s would only ever be possible if you had a power struggle at the top of the party with respected senior moderate candidates that carried enough weight to pull a number of backbench MPs off to form a rival party. I can't readily identify any centrist/Blairite with gravitas like that in the Labour party currently.

The true irony is that despite Brexit being electoral cryptonite to the conservatives, Corbyn and McDonnell with their hostility to the EU are the only two men not easily able to capitalise on it as they have to be pro Brexit to facilitate their crpto-communist economic policies. The rest of the Labour party may not be but they haven't shown the capacity to change any of Corbyn or momentum's policies yet...

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:46 am I agree with most of what you listed.

ZedLeg wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:19 pm Mostly just splitting hairs about capitalism TBH, not entirely sure I can be bothered getting into an argument about it though .

GG. wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:03 am

Richard wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:59 am They all do and would do broadly the same thing when in charge. Their hands are tied by so many factors

I think that statement is borne out of being too young to remember the 1970s an adult. Proper left wing governments most certainly don't do "broadly the same thing". We just haven't had one of those since pre 1979.

Richard wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:25 pm

GG. wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:03 am

Richard wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:59 am They all do and would do broadly the same thing when in charge. Their hands are tied by so many factors

I think that statement is borne out of being too young to remember the 1970s an adult. Proper left wing governments most certainly don't do "broadly the same thing". We just haven't had one of those since pre 1979.

This is possibly true

I am too young to remember that

However, we’re not voting for 1970’s parties

NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:28 pm

Richard wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:25 pm

GG. wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:03 am

I think that statement is borne out of being too young to remember the 1970s an adult. Proper left wing governments most certainly don't do "broadly the same thing". We just haven't had one of those since pre 1979.

This is possibly true

I am too young to remember that

However, we’re not voting for 1970’s parties

In terms of Corbyn's Labour, we very much ARE voting for 70s parties. Or 2018 Venezuela.

NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:25 pm I know it's shit but it's the best we've had so far.

NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:39 am It annoys me to see Centrist has become an actual insult these days (typically Centrist Dad) as that probably best describes my politics, and I think in reality probably describes the politics of the majority of people:

- capitalism is good and has lifted more people out of poverty than any other economic system, but unfettered capitalism is bad if inequality becomes rampant
- I want a good free to use health care system
- the best free education in the world up to and including university/apprenticeships to give us the best educated and trained workforce we can have
- I want those out of work to be helped back into work by providing training and incentives
- I want those who can't work to be looked after
- I want our old folks looking after
- I'm happy to pay more tax to provide those things as long as the money is spent efficiently
- I want our police to be well funded and focussing on crimes that impact the community most
- I want equality of opportunity for all (but not equality of outcome)
- I want a free press that has absolute free speech but that uses that right responsibly instead of the utter shitbuckets we have now
- Where's my fucking unicorn? It had better be fetching me the moon on a stick.

NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:39 am It annoys me to see Centrist has become an actual insult these days (typically Centrist Dad) as that probably best describes my politics, and I think in reality probably describes the politics of the majority of people:

- capitalism is good and has lifted more people out of poverty than any other economic system, but unfettered capitalism is bad if inequality becomes rampant
- I want a good free to use health care system
- the best free education in the world up to and including university/apprenticeships to give us the best educated and trained workforce we can have
- I want those out of work to be helped back into work by providing training and incentives
- I want those who can't work to be looked after
- I want our old folks looking after
- I'm happy to pay more tax to provide those things as long as the money is spent efficiently
- I want our police to be well funded and focussing on crimes that impact the community most
- I want equality of opportunity for all (but not equality of outcome)
- I want a free press that has absolute free speech but that uses that right responsibly instead of the utter shitbuckets we have now
- Where's my fucking unicorn? It had better be fetching me the moon on a stick.

PreacherCain wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:36 pm

NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:39 am It annoys me to see Centrist has become an actual insult these days (typically Centrist Dad) as that probably best describes my politics, and I think in reality probably describes the politics of the majority of people:

- capitalism is good and has lifted more people out of poverty than any other economic system, but unfettered capitalism is bad if inequality becomes rampant
- I want a good free to use health care system
- the best free education in the world up to and including university/apprenticeships to give us the best educated and trained workforce we can have
- I want those out of work to be helped back into work by providing training and incentives
- I want those who can't work to be looked after
- I want our old folks looking after
- I'm happy to pay more tax to provide those things as long as the money is spent efficiently
- I want our police to be well funded and focussing on crimes that impact the community most
- I want equality of opportunity for all (but not equality of outcome)
- I want a free press that has absolute free speech but that uses that right responsibly instead of the utter shitbuckets we have now
- Where's my fucking unicorn? It had better be fetching me the moon on a stick.

St. Thomas More called, he wants his concept of a nonexistent ideal society back.

FWIW I agree with you - I'd add a simplified and universally applied tax code, but then I'm a boring bastard. I just object to seeing individuals and firms being able legally to avoid paying their due.