OV9

I reckon the whole thing just got better. Get rid of these none believers starting at the top... by the way nothing has been dealt or agreed as far as I know.....

Broccers wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:14 pm by the way nothing has been dealt or agreed as far as I know.....

That's the problem though isn't it? This whole thing is just turning into a massive sink of time and money, we can't let it limp along like this indefinitely.

ZedLeg wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:20 pm

Broccers wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:14 pm by the way nothing has been dealt or agreed as far as I know.....

That's the problem though isn't it? This whole thing is just turning into a massive sink of time and money, we can't let it limp along like this indefinitely.

Totally.

Get rid of this lamer

I know this is a BroccersTrigger but just briefly - what are the benefits of Leave again? Just list three things for me and blame my ignorance on being remote.

JLv3.0 wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:29 pm I know this is a BroccersTrigger but just briefly - what are the benefits of Leave again? Just list three things for me and blame my ignorance on being remote.

It didn't inevitably have to turn out to be as much of a shambles as this but it was almost certainly set to once May lost her majority. Without a clear mandate in parliament whatever her policy was on Brexit was always going to get scythed to pieces in trying to string together a sufficient compromise to get it through parliament.

Have you ever looked at fishing quotas? Just as a starter....

Broccers wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:32 pm Have you ever looked at fishing quotas? Just as a starter....

Do you genuinely believe I have, even once?

No, seriously - things that Joe Q Moron will actually benefit from.

Wait I know this.

Sovereignty
definitely not racist fear about immigration
£350 million a week for the NHS that isn't actually £350 million a week or going to the NHS

I really wish I'd thought to save the comment that GG posted in the old thread where he came over all poetic about green and pleasant England .

ZedLeg wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:36 pm

Sovereignty
definitely not racist fear about immigration
£350 million a week for the NHS that isn't actually £350 million a week or going to the NHS

So an intangible, a nod to paranoia and a lie.

Next.

GG. wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:32 pm It didn't inevitably have to turn out to be as much of a shambles as this but it was almost certainly set to once May lost her majority. Without a clear mandate in parliament whatever her policy was on Brexit was always going to get scythed to pieces in trying to string together a sufficient compromise to get it through parliament.

She's gone nowhere near parliament with the current plans yet - this is just trying to get buy-in from her own government.

Frankly, if they capitulate without putting up a workable alternative, then change their minds two days later, David 'Thick As Mince' Davis and his cronies have to accept the battle is lost. We'll be leaving, in a way which leaves us weaker because we're so heavily tied to the EU with no influence, and everyone will be dissatisfied despite the result of the referendum being respected. It isn't particularly astonishing that this will be the case; it was the only possible outcome once the leave vote won.

The issue is that the remain side have become completely hung up on requiring things to be justified by virtue of it becoming economically beneficial to the UK. I'm obviously aware that various faction of the leave campaign stupidly made this argument, but you can justify Brexit at the same time as acknowledging that it is likely to have a negative (though not as extreme an effect as was suggested (which has already been shown)) effect on GDP in the short to medium term.

The fundamental issue, no matter how people bleat about various EU entities being 'elected' is that the Parliament, Commission, etc. are always going to be inherently 'anti-democratic' from the perspective that the UK (and indeed every other country that is part of a transnational body like this) can be outvoted on matters by function of other member states (and therefore populaces) simply because they represent a minority part. This is fine for intranational bodies that create rules for trading between sovereign nations, etc. but it categorically isn't fine when the laws passed make up a significant percentage of all the laws of the UK. I know this is too subtle a point for many to get because all they see if "we vote for MEPs therefore its democratic" etc. but it doesn't mean it is not true.

ETA: this isn't a response to your comment Simon.

Ok, lovely.

Now for some actual, clear benefits please for actual people.

You're criticising the government for being 'hung up' on the exit deal being commercial justified? If it wasn't justified then it wouldn't be a deal worth signing up to.

Are you suggesting that a hard Brexit (i.e. no deal, leave next March) is in some way economically detrimental?

@ JL: On the basis of the deal that Theresa is putting up: virtually none.

GG. wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:48 pm @ JL: On the basis of the deal that Theresa is putting up: virtually none.

I think he was asking for any benefits at all - do you have a better plan than BoJo, Davis et al to compete with Theresa's?

Yes, that's what I meant. I know I sound argumentative but for once that isn't my intention. Beyond vague concepts of sovereignty and a nod to the racists, what has this been sold on? Will people get more money and will the trains be quicker, or something?

Jobbo wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:45 pm Are you suggesting that a hard Brexit (i.e. no deal, leave next March) is in some way economically detrimental?

I was suggesting that the likelihood is that Brexit (hard, soft or a semi) would result in a reduction of GDP in the short to medium term. As with everything, its extremely difficult to forecast because the consequences of "hard Brexit", i.e. exit on WTO terms are not pre-ordained. They are a function of (i) what contingency planning there is to avoid hurdles being placed in the way of trade and (ii) whether the EU elects to levy WTO tariffs on UK goods, (iii) whether we reciprocate and (iv) the financial effects of not having to apply the CET, among many other things.

JLv3.0 wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:54 pm Yes, that's what I meant. I know I sound argumentative but for once that isn't my intention. Beyond vague concepts of sovereignty and a nod to the racists, what has this been sold on? Will people get more money and will the trains be quicker, or something?

To control our own country. That is the plan anyway.

OK. Now for that list of actual benefits that people will notice please. Except I know you won't answer my question and will just get all defensive and say you won't repeat yourself or something