OV9

Marv wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 2:55 pm I wonder when 30mph speed limits were introduced widespread across the UK, if alot of people were complaining?

I'm in favour of 20 limits past schools, or where you have urban streets consisting of pavement > parked cars > roadway. There is no question that something can pop out from behind a parked object, leaving a driver very little time to react - so slower speeds are better.

I'm strongly not in favour of stoopid / pointless 20 limits where visibility is good and hazards are low.

Met some Dutch colleagues last Friday. They say that most of Amsterdam is 30k limit now. Drives them mad.

Ascender wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 8:40 am What a PITA. I wonder what %age of council income is down to speeding fines?

Its my annual reminder that there's still no speed awareness courses in Scotland for "reasons".

@Ascender I spotted a speed camera van just outside Thurso on my way to my hotel. I had wondered how much enforcement there was up here. Some, in the wrong place, it seems. Not that we behaved in a silly manner anyway. But always worth being wary.

If anyone is every coming towards my neck of the woods in Teesside there’s a good 80% chance of a camera van on the a19 between York and Teesside- either on a bridge or in a lay-by, see the most times I use that route at all times of day

Cleveland police don’t seem to put too many out, but North Yorkshire love a camera van

Worcestershire is pretty bad for camera vans. They are generally in places where going a bit over the speed limit isn’t obviously dangerous. Gloucestershire like them too but tend to put them in actual danger spots.

Not a NIP but related. There's roadworks down on the main road with four way light controls. There's a yellow box to avoid the road from the train station being blocked, but the placement of the temporary lights makes it a trap. In two days both my wife and I got caught (just had the letters come through), in similar circumstances. Both times we were behind a bus, and the lights changed, but we couldn't see it. Bus stops, we're stuck behind.

The most frustrating part is that the road the hatched box is"protecting" is closed for the roadworks, so there's nobody being held up.

We are on day 9 and nothing yet...

This has the capacity to be a bit of a headache as even if a NIP has been issued within time, I would give it at best a 50:50 chance of arriving within the 14 calendar days given the terrible London post (which would be by this Sunday, so effectively Saturday as that will be the last post). I've just got an HMRC letter which arrived today despite being dated 7 April...

Even if dated within the time - by which I understand to mean 2BD prior to the last day it could be received - i.e. would need to be dated tomorrow latest - it may well come through much later which would then mean I would need to rebut the presumption that it was served in good time.

Another worry is if it is as late as that HMRC letter, if I could feasibly miss the 28 day dealing to respond as well

You're not the only one caught by the cameras

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/ ... dApp_Other

Bet they thought they were going quackers.

GG. wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 2:34 pm We are on day 9 and nothing yet...

This has the capacity to be a bit of a headache as even if a NIP has been issued within time, I would give it at best a 50:50 chance of arriving within the 14 calendar days given the terrible London post (which would be by this Sunday, so effectively Saturday as that will be the last post). I've just got an HMRC letter which arrived today despite being dated 7 April...

Even if dated within the time - by which I understand to mean 2BD prior to the last day it could be received - i.e. would need to be dated tomorrow latest - it may well come through much later which would then mean I would need to rebut the presumption that it was served in good time.

Another worry is if it is as late as that HMRC letter, if I could feasibly miss the 28 day dealing to respond as well

Mine came on the 27th day, and I was three days late in responding, but they didn't pull me up on it and 'awarded' me the standard fine and three points. I'm glad it's not just SE1 that has atrocious Royal Mail deliveries!

Jimexpl wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 8:43 pm

GG. wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 2:34 pm We are on day 9 and nothing yet...

This has the capacity to be a bit of a headache as even if a NIP has been issued within time, I would give it at best a 50:50 chance of arriving within the 14 calendar days given the terrible London post (which would be by this Sunday, so effectively Saturday as that will be the last post). I've just got an HMRC letter which arrived today despite being dated 7 April...

Even if dated within the time - by which I understand to mean 2BD prior to the last day it could be received - i.e. would need to be dated tomorrow latest - it may well come through much later which would then mean I would need to rebut the presumption that it was served in good time.

Another worry is if it is as late as that HMRC letter, if I could feasibly miss the 28 day dealing to respond as well

Mine came on the 27th day, and I was three days late in responding, but they didn't pull me up on it and 'awarded' me the standard fine and three points. I'm glad it's not just SE1 that has atrocious Royal Mail deliveries!

The thing is I don't think you needed to have accepted the points. If it arrived after 14 days it was not validly served within the time frame.

I think some people get confused because there is a rebuttable presumption that if it was sent inside the 14 days with enough time to get there by first class post that that is sufficient even if it arrives late. I need to do some more reading but my understanding is that it is not sufficient even if there are bank holidays or postal delays - you then have to evidence that it did not arrive in that time but that can be raised as a defence.

I seem to remember such a defence in court where the accused called the postie as a witness to affirm that it arrived on the late date claimed.

DeskJockey wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 7:25 pm You're not the only one caught by the cameras

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/ ... dApp_Other

52km/h in a 30km/h zone? That's Oberwangen!

Simon wrote: Tue May 13, 2025 9:13 pm I seem to remember such a defence in court where the accused called the postie as a witness to affirm that it arrived on the late date claimed.

I've checked and the position I stated above is correct - if postal delays mean it arrives outside the 14 days, it is not validly served within the time period.

The issue then is that if you write to the police to contest and they refuse then you will have a nice visit to the magistrates court and have to rebut the presumption that it arrived within time. It would be interesting to know what the burden of proof is on that - is it sufficient to prove that there is reasonable doubt that it arrived within 14 days - that would seem easy enough.

The hardest bit is balancing the hassle / reward of this. If they offered a SAC, likely easier to go down that route all told. Truth is the police should not be serving these notices via mail, particularly not to addresses in London.

ETA: seems to be on the balance of probabilities. Harder than raising a reasonable doubt (and slightly incongruous to apply a civil standard to a defence to a criminal charge but anyway...) I'd be challenging that if it arrives late and was posted anything more than a day or two after as our first class mail typically takes a week or more to arrive. I should post myself something tomorrow to test it in advance.

I did read of a case where the postman gave evidence that he delivered the NIP envelope on a particular date, out of time, and that still wasn’t sufficient to persuade the court that the presumption of service in time was rebutted.

If it does arrive out of time, get as much evidence as possible of the date. It might still not be enough but if you did go to court, don’t think it’s going to be easy to prove. I’m guessing there are a lot of idiots lying to get out of speeding tickets and the courts don’t view anyone opting for court on a technicality kindly.

Or take the 3 points or a course if it comes??

If you were speeding, you were speeding. I’d get it if you were on 9 points + but with a 21 year clean licence, is 3 points for 3 years worth the hassle of fighting it on a hard to prove technicality??

Just a thought

ShockDiamonds wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 4:14 pm Met some Dutch colleagues last Friday. They say that most of Amsterdam is 30k limit now. Drives them mad.

This puts you constantly side by side with cyclists which have different road layouts.

Dave!

V8Granite wrote: Wed May 14, 2025 8:27 am

ShockDiamonds wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 4:14 pm Met some Dutch colleagues last Friday. They say that most of Amsterdam is 30k limit now. Drives them mad.

This puts you constantly side by side with cyclists which have different road layouts.

Dave!

I experienced this in both Netherlands and Belgium last year. (Whilst it's arguably no different to the UK situation, there are far more cyclists and with their flat topography they invariably tend to be going at a decent lick).

Doing some quick calculations:
> You come up behind a cyclist that is doing 15mph
> Assume that they don't increase their speed at any point, that you initially hold back 10m behind them, and want to pull back in at least 10m in front of them. And that the bike is 2m long.
> Even if you instantly increase your speed from 15mph to 20mph to perform the overtake, you'll need to be on the other side of the road for 9.85seconds to complete your move. You'll therefore need a clear gap of 88m on the other side of the road.
> If another vehicle is approaching from the opposite direction doing 20mph, they'll be covering ground at the same rate, so you'll need that other vehicle to be at least 186m away when you start your manouvre (allowing you to pull back in 10m before they pass to avoid rage creation).

Hence you very often just trundle along behind the cyclist instead.....

(Note - calculations for 30mph speed limit would be 3.3 seconds / 44m distance covered)

I read a report over speed recommendations as part of the push to reduce road fatalities to zero. Schools and busy pedestrian zones should be no more than 10 mph.

Roads which are used only by cars and there’s the possibility of a head on collision from an oncoming lane no more than 30 mph.

Roads which are shared by cars and lorries with the possibility of a head on collision no more than 20 mph - so that’s every road aside from dual carriageways/motorways.

I reckon that will become the norm though.

Driving through Witney and its 20 zone, downhill from the west especially, I cannot actually overtake the cyclists because they are quite often going faster than me.