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Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:27 pm
by Hates_
duncs500 wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:12 am
@Hates_ assumed you'd be going straight to harnesses when you got the Tilletts TBH.
I was hoping to keep both as the lap belt can be a bit more convenient when trying to move my head forward to see traffic lights
TBH it's such a faff now trying to pass it through the hole that I might just forget about them completely. The other option I'm mulling over is just removing the centre console completely, as then I can run it the right way round. which also gives me that more race car look
I tried getting an extended seat belt but couldn't find one with a buckle suitable for the standard tongue.
My harness is the twist release type, not the push button one. Sounds like there is no clear answer then. Come MOT time I'll be taking it to a Lotus specialist, so I'll just prompt them to make the necessary changes before the MOT, if it would fail
Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:42 pm
by Sundayjumper
Yeah, I'm still going on this
ECE Regulation 16 Rev 10 para 6.2.2.2. says.....
https://unece.org/sites/default/files/2 ... 16r10e.pdf
The buckle, even when not under tension, shall remain closed whatever the position of the vehicle. It shall not be possible to release the buckle inadvertently, accidentally or with a force of less than 1 daN. The buckle shall be easy to use and to grasp; when it is not under tension and when under the tension specified in paragraph 7.8.2. below, it shall be capable of being released by the wearer with a single simple movement of one hand in one direction; in addition, in the case of belt assemblies intended to be used for the front outboard seats, except in these harness belts, it shall also be capable of being engaged by the wearer with a simple movement of one hand in one direction.
The buckle shall be released by pressing either a button or a similar device. The surface to which this pressure is applied shall have the following dimensions, with the button in the actual release position and when projected into a plane perpendicular to the button's initial direction of motion: for enclosed buttons, an area of not less than 4.5 cm2 and a width of not less than 15 mm; for non-enclosed buttons, an area of not less than 2.5 cm2 and a width of not less than 10 mm.
The buckle release area shall be coloured red. No other part of the buckle shall be of this color. When the seat is occupied, a red warning light as part of the buckle shall be permitted, if it is switched off by the action of buckling the seat belt. Lights illuminating the buckle in a colour other than red are not required to be switched off by the action of buckling the seat belt. These lights shall not illuminate the buckle in such a way that the perception of the red colour of the buckle release or the red of the warning light is affected.
Phew ! Key points for me are:
"The buckle shall be released by pressing either a button or a similar device."
I'm sure certain smartarses will argue the toss that a rotary buckle is "similar" to a button but I would not agree. It also refers repeatedly to a "button" in other parts of the text and from that I interpret the requirement is for a pushing action, not a twisting action.
"The buckle release area shall be coloured red."
That's a gotcha. None of my harnesses have a red release area.
In simple words, to comply with ECE 16, there needs to be a red bit that you push to release the buckle. Aircraft buckles do not meet that requirement, therefore having a harness with an aircraft buckle - even if the original seat belts are still present - is an MOT fail.
I'm aware of the misunderstood "race car" exemption. This gets dragged out by every muppet that thinks harness = RACE CAR
The intention of the exemption is for rally cars that are primarily used off-road but need to use public roads between stages, i.e. driving on public roads is not their
primary use. You'd expect the car to have extensive other modifications too. Not just seats & cage, but mechanical modifications, and safety equipment as mandated by the relevant competition body. It should be self-evident whether it's genuinely a competition car or just "modded". It seems it's left to the tester's discretion though. I'd personally propose that an MSA logbook should be required to get the exemption. That makes the decision nice and clear and all the smartarses (see above) can go cry into their Maccy D's.
Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:34 pm
by Sundayjumper
On the continuing topic of smartarses
if you've just read all that and thought to yourself "AHHH ! But ECE is a
European thing and we're not part of Europe any more thank goodness, we will take back control of all this snowflake seatbelt nonsense" then please do go and find whatever document supersedes ECE 16 and report back here.
Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:38 pm
by Sundayjumper
Hates_ wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:27 pm
Come MOT time I'll be taking it to a Lotus specialist, so I'll just prompt them to make the necessary changes before the MOT, if it would fail
In what may seem like a contradiction to everything I've just written, I'm also a pragmatist. At MOT time for the 996 & the Compact I've simply tucked the harnesses out of the way as far as possible, they've tested the standard belts and it has not been a problem. I'm not going to drag out all this info at the MOT station and insist that they fail my car !
Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:12 pm
by duncs500
*smart arse mode engaged* I spend a lot of time interpreting technical standards and I would say that the rotary release on my Caterham was an entirely similar device. If anything it was more effective, you could push it in either direction and it was pretty sensitive once positive pressure was made. It was also red.
Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:29 pm
by Sundayjumper
Does it have ECE 16 approval though ? It'll be on the label, an "E" and then a number. That will be the decider.
Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:42 pm
by Sundayjumper
You even forced me to go and check
I have a surprising amount of stuff in the garage.
Schroth belt with push-button buckle, has an E marking:
- 96385336-F05E-4905-B6E8-B6EADDEDD63A.jpeg (39.37 KiB) Viewed 786 times
Schroth belt with rotary-action buckle does not:
- 95687D00-8FEB-48D7-AAAC-80F1F138F05A.jpeg (32.32 KiB) Viewed 786 times
Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:00 pm
by Hates_
I appreciate just how much research you've done into this
Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:07 pm
by JonMad
Sundayjumper wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:42 pm
I'm aware of the misunderstood "race car" exemption. This gets dragged out by every muppet that thinks harness = RACE CAR
The intention of the exemption is for rally cars that are primarily used off-road but need to use public roads between stages, i.e. driving on public roads is not their
primary use. You'd expect the car to have extensive other modifications too. Not just seats & cage, but mechanical modifications, and safety equipment as mandated by the relevant competition body. It should be self-evident whether it's genuinely a competition car or just "modded". It seems it's left to the tester's discretion though.
Long may my local, regular tester take this view.
Just checked my harness buckle. It’s not red. But the straps are.
Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:52 am
by drcarlos
One of life's rules is that you should always have a mate as a mechanic and preferably one who owns his own MOT testing station (Also add plumber/electrician/Gas safe engineer to the list).
My suggestion is that you enlarge your circle of friends
Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:59 am
by duncs500
Sundayjumper wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:42 pm
You even forced me to go and check
I have a surprising amount of stuff in the garage.
Schroth belt with push-button buckle, has an E marking:
96385336-F05E-4905-B6E8-B6EADDEDD63A.jpeg
Schroth belt with rotary-action buckle does not:
95687D00-8FEB-48D7-AAAC-80F1F138F05A.jpeg
Sadly unable to check mine. Your particular rotary action buckle, with it not being red, is flagrantly breaching the regs and as such no surprise it doesn't have the E marking.
Mine was factory fit and red, so has a much better chance. To truly complete your research you must seek out someone with a factory fit red buckled harness.
@speedingfine ?
Re: Flipping my seat belt buckle... Possible MOT failure?
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:07 am
by Sundayjumper
It would certainly be good to find an e-marked rotary buckle and put this to rest !
