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Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:13 am
by simon_g
Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:57 am
From the limited info I have it sounds like the best way to speed things up would be to standardise infrastructure - Plugs/chargers/etc... it’s fine quoting the number of charging points, but if your car can only work on a percentage of them then the number is pretty meaningless.
Effectively there is, type 2 for slower and CCS for rapid charging. Only the Leaf and env200 still use Chademo, and the "fast AC" that some older Zoes had isn't offered any more in favour of CCS.
Still a long tail of earlier cars to go on supporting though, but they'll be dwarfed by all the new CCS cars being sold.
It's not a problem to pull up to a petrol station and have to choose between 3 or more pumps, and it's not really a problem for rapid chargers to have other connectors that are different too.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:22 am
by Rich B
simon_g wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:13 am
Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:57 am
From the limited info I have it sounds like the best way to speed things up would be to standardise infrastructure - Plugs/chargers/etc... it’s fine quoting the number of charging points, but if your car can only work on a percentage of them then the number is pretty meaningless.
Effectively there is, type 2 for slower and CCS for rapid charging. Only the Leaf and env200 still use Chademo, and the "fast AC" that some older Zoes had isn't offered any more in favour of CCS.
Still a long tail of earlier cars to go on supporting though, but they'll be dwarfed by all the new CCS cars being sold.
It's not a problem to pull up to a petrol station and have to choose between 3 or more pumps, and it's not really a problem for rapid chargers to have other connectors that are different too.
sorry, all I read there was:
“There is only one, except for all the other ones”
So in my ignorance, could I pull up and charge an electric golf at a Tesla charging station?
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:26 am
by DeskJockey
Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:22 am
simon_g wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:13 am
Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:57 am
From the limited info I have it sounds like the best way to speed things up would be to standardise infrastructure - Plugs/chargers/etc... it’s fine quoting the number of charging points, but if your car can only work on a percentage of them then the number is pretty meaningless.
Effectively there is, type 2 for slower and CCS for rapid charging. Only the Leaf and env200 still use Chademo, and the "fast AC" that some older Zoes had isn't offered any more in favour of CCS.
Still a long tail of earlier cars to go on supporting though, but they'll be dwarfed by all the new CCS cars being sold.
It's not a problem to pull up to a petrol station and have to choose between 3 or more pumps, and it's not really a problem for rapid chargers to have other connectors that are different too.
sorry, all I read there was:
“There is only one, except for all the other ones”
So in my ignorance, could I pull up and charge an electric golf at a Tesla charging station?
Quick Google suggests the answer is "it depends". Some other brands can be charged on Tesla's chargers, not all.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:33 am
by simon_g
Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:22 am
simon_g wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:13 am
Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:57 am
From the limited info I have it sounds like the best way to speed things up would be to standardise infrastructure - Plugs/chargers/etc... it’s fine quoting the number of charging points, but if your car can only work on a percentage of them then the number is pretty meaningless.
Effectively there is, type 2 for slower and CCS for rapid charging. Only the Leaf and env200 still use Chademo, and the "fast AC" that some older Zoes had isn't offered any more in favour of CCS.
Still a long tail of earlier cars to go on supporting though, but they'll be dwarfed by all the new CCS cars being sold.
It's not a problem to pull up to a petrol station and have to choose between 3 or more pumps, and it's not really a problem for rapid chargers to have other connectors that are different too.
sorry, all I read there was:
“There is only one, except for all the other ones”
So in my ignorance, could I pull up and charge an electric golf at a Tesla charging station?
Connector is physically identical but Tesla don't let other cars use their superchargers. Built privately on private land, without any public money so they can do what they like, it's not a public service.
Slower destination chargers that Tesla provide to hotels, restaurants, etc - yes, although there's a mix of Tesla only (red sign) to anyone (white sign). Again, private land, no grant funding so they can make whatever rules they like.
A Model 3 can charge at all the places I can in my Golf though.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:38 am
by Mito Man
The way the Tesla supercharger works is that you add your bank details into the car so each time you plug in to the supercharger it bills you through the car. So unless other car manufacturers can make a system which talks to the supercharger there’s no other way of paying, that said I don’t think the software will allow a non Tesla anyway.
This did make me chuckle
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/electre ... ry-31/amp/
This is the problem with having what is essentially an unregulated commodity.
Edit - just doing the maths, so in the uk 100kwh would cost £69. 100kwh is equivalent to about 10 litres of petrol so yeah, lube up.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:44 am
by Rich B
simon_g wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:33 am
Rich B wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:22 am
simon_g wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:13 am
Effectively there is, type 2 for slower and CCS for rapid charging. Only the Leaf and env200 still use Chademo, and the "fast AC" that some older Zoes had isn't offered any more in favour of CCS.
Still a long tail of earlier cars to go on supporting though, but they'll be dwarfed by all the new CCS cars being sold.
It's not a problem to pull up to a petrol station and have to choose between 3 or more pumps, and it's not really a problem for rapid chargers to have other connectors that are different too.
sorry, all I read there was:
“There is only one, except for all the other ones”
So in my ignorance, could I pull up and charge an electric golf at a Tesla charging station?
Connector is physically identical but Tesla don't let other cars use their superchargers. Built privately on private land, without any public money so they can do what they like, it's not a public service.
Slower destination chargers that Tesla provide to hotels, restaurants, etc - yes, although there's a mix of Tesla only (red sign) to anyone (white sign). Again, private land, no grant funding so they can make whatever rules they like.
A Model 3 can charge at all the places I can in my Golf though.
are Tesla ones counted in the 7000 figure?
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:00 pm
by simon_g
Yes, it's off
https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/ - 440 of that number are Tesla superchargers.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:03 pm
by Rich B
Mito Man wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:38 am
The way the Tesla supercharger works is that you add your bank details into the car so each time you plug in to the supercharger it bills you through the car. So unless other car manufacturers can make a system which talks to the supercharger there’s no other way of paying, that said I don’t think the software will allow a non Tesla anyway.
This did make me chuckle
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/electre ... ry-31/amp/
This is the problem with having what is essentially an unregulated commodity.
Edit - just doing the maths, so in the uk 100kwh would cost £69. 100kwh is equivalent to about 10 litres of petrol so yeah, lube up.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:28 pm
by Mito Man
Zap map stats must be about as accurate as China’s virus reporting. They show private chargers people have installed at their homes ffs and plenty of their London ones are in hotels exclusively for guests of the hotel.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:33 pm
by Rich B
So from that info it looks like there are 4 types of rapid chargers, spread over 3000 locations (each location with a around 2-3 chargers) totalling 7000 chargers?
Obviously this will grow, but who’s to say the next player to enter the game won’t add more new standards?
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:35 pm
by Rich B
Mito Man wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:28 pm
Zap map stats must be about as accurate as China’s virus reporting. They show private chargers people have installed at their homes ffs and plenty of their London ones are in hotels exclusively for guests of the hotel.
How will anyone get a blinkered view of the EV experience if you keep on posting all these facts Mito??!
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:58 pm
by Mito Man
On the chargers there’s sort of 4. Nissan use Chademo as they were one of the pioneers but I think everyone else agreed to use type 2. I believe it’s the standard in Japan though but that’s irrelevant.
Type 2 is the new standard but it only does 7-14kw.
After that you have CCS which is type 2 plus 2 extra high voltage lines which allows higher speed charging. If you have CCS you will thus also have type 2. But many plug in hybrids and cheaper electric cars only have type 2.
Then there’s the Tesla charger which is both type 2 and CCS but it’s Tesla only.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:07 pm
by duncs500
Sounds like what one needs to get into this caper is a Tesla.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:21 pm
by Rich B
Tbh, it sounds like the only way to use an EV is to also have another ICE car.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:25 pm
by GG.
All this talk of charging four wheeled white goods has made me realise how many hours of my life I've saved not having to research a thousand different types of plug.
Seriously though - there will be no mass transition to BEVs until the infrastructure/technology makes a next generation shift - i.e. roads / car parks with inductive charging under each space. Basically something to avoid the inevitable bottlenecking which will very quickly happen when the number of EVs exceeds the number of chargers by a huge multiple. The differing standards among chargers/providers exacerbates the problem but dealing with that doesn't solve the issue of capacity generally.
Going back to the 2035 target - the most annoying thing about top down regulation is that the powers that be set a target for a changeover with an arbitrary deadline and care nothing about whether or not it is achievable and the chaos that accompanies everyone scrambling to find solutions. Anyone working in finance will be familiar with that at the moment with the LIBOR phase out. No clue of what will easily replace it but a totally unrealistic deadline that no more LIBOR loans are to be written by Q3 this year
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:34 pm
by Jobbo
If the intention is to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, when are human beings going to start being culled? Or, before that: public transport, delivery vehicles etc?
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:35 pm
by mik
After Brexit we have to have specific UK versions of each plug anyway. Each has to be at least 80% more painful to step on than the European versions.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:38 pm
by Mito Man
Jobbo wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:34 pm
If the intention is to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, when are human beings going to start being culled? Or, before that: public transport, delivery vehicles etc?
Just waiting for the Coronavirus to do its thing.
At the end of the day the main issue is overpopulation, I just don’t see how you can get 8 billion people to go about their lives without impacting the environment.
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:40 pm
by Swervin_Mervin
GG. wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:25 pm
All this talk of charging four wheeled white goods has made me realise how many hours of my life I've saved not having to research a thousand different types of plug.
Seriously though - there will be no mass transition to BEVs until the infrastructure/technology makes a next generation shift - i.e. roads / car parks with inductive charging under each space. Basically something to avoid the inevitable bottlenecking which will very quickly happen when the number of EVs exceeds the number of chargers by a huge multiple. The differing standards among chargers/providers exacerbates the problem but dealing with that doesn't solve the issue of capacity generally.
Going back to the 2035 target - the most annoying thing about top down regulation is that the powers that be set a target for a changeover with an arbitrary deadline and care nothing about whether or not it is achievable and the chaos that accompanies everyone scrambling to find solutions. Anyone working in finance will be familiar with that at the moment with the LIBOR phase out. No clue of what will easily replace it but a totally unrealistic deadline that no more LIBOR loans are to be written by Q3 this year
Most people will charge at home and this will cater for a majority of journeys. Charging connectors appear to have standardised (type 2/CCS).
Christ I'm no EV evangelist but some of you sound like horse and cart drivers upon hearing of the invention of the ICE
Re: The ICE
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:47 pm
by Rich B
Mito Man wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:38 pm
Jobbo wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:34 pm
If the intention is to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, when are human beings going to start being culled? Or, before that: public transport, delivery vehicles etc?
Just waiting for the Coronavirus to do its thing.
At the end of the day the main issue is overpopulation, I just don’t see how you can get 8 billion people to go about their lives without impacting the environment.
what is the correct number then?
