OV9

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:20 pm**

Simon wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:49 pm
DeskJockey wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:05 pm Proportional representation. Only way I can see true, lasting change to politics in this country as, for better or worse, it means each vote counts.
To be fair, I think that the more diverse the parliament, the less will get done. FPTP may not be perfect, but at least it can fairly easily lead to majorities which itself can actually pass policy.

Lots of countries with coalitions work fine. The fundamental problem with FPTP is that unless you vote for the party whose seat you live in, you're almost guaranteed to waste your vote, this leads to disenfranchisement of the voters, because why bother?

Secondly, by having every vote count you'll get a proliferation of parties, some only nuances apart, other polar opposites. But that means that each party won't have to bend themselves out of shape to mitigate a risk from within or try to appeal to all, there'll be other parties that suit those voters/MPs better. From my own experience con/lab/libdem tend to be the major parties, but they can create coalitions that work (Denmark tends towards three-way coalitions).

I think, that had there been more party options David Cameron could have avoided the referendum, because the back benchers would have posed less of a threat.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:24 pm**

Out of the G8 countries, only 3 (us, the US and Canada) still use FPTP. Almost every other country still using FPTP could probably be described as “developing”. Are you saying that almost every other country in the world struggles to pass legislation (and I'll take a moment here to point out that we can’t seem to pass any Brexit deal legislation through our FPTP parliament)?

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:39 pm**

They've been struggling to pass the deal(s) legislation before May had a wafer thin majority and it didn't take many to disobey the whip for the vote to fail. Boris has literally thrown the majority away completely, so it's even harder for him. IF he were to come back with a bigger majority (and with the implied mandate that'd come with that) then yes, it'll be much easier to get it past Parliament.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:47 pm**

It’s not just Brexit though, with no majority and a hugely different viewed opposition they’ll never be able to do anything.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:58 pm**

Rich B wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:47 pm It’s not just Brexit though, with no majority and a hugely different viewed opposition they’ll never be able to do anything.

This. Our political landscape would need to change significantly for proper coalition government to work effectively in this country. I actually think it did work quite well under the Con-Lib coalition but that was very one-sided with the LD's acting more as a restraint really. And look what happened to them after that - wiped out because of one key policy they had to compromise on.

And that gets to the essence of our democratic sovereignty - we have a system whereby if we don't like it, we clear the lot out. No ifs, buts, or thank yous, and crucially int eh case of the Lib Dems last time, no forgiveness. Piss off and let's see what the next lot can do. This has both obvious up and down sides. But it's fundamentally a very different way of doing things compared to most developed countries that don't have FPTP. Varoufakis wrote a piece that covers this aspect of our democracy and how it has shaped our relationship with the EU and it's other member states.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:36 pm**

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:58 pm
Rich B wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:47 pm It’s not just Brexit though, with no majority and a hugely different viewed opposition they’ll never be able to do anything.
This. Our political landscape would need to change significantly for proper coalition government to work effectively in this country. I actually think it did work quite well under the Con-Lib coalition but that was very one-sided with the LD's acting more as a restraint really. And look what happened to them after that - wiped out because of one key policy they had to compromise on.

And that gets to the essence of our democratic sovereignty - we have a system whereby if we don't like it, we clear the lot out. No ifs, buts, or thank yous, and crucially int eh case of the Lib Dems last time, no forgiveness. Piss off and let's see what the next lot can do. This has both obvious up and down sides. But it's fundamentally a very different way of doing things compared to most developed countries that don't have FPTP. Varoufakis wrote a piece that covers this aspect of our democracy and how it has shaped our relationship with the EU and it's other member states.

But it isn't "the next lot", that's the problem, it just goes round the circle again and back to the lot before. With PR there is at least a chance that "the next lot" are indeed new on the scene, with different ideas and agendas. PR isn't perfect either, but it is less flawed by virtue of giving more voters an actual say in who governs them.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:44 pm**

DeskJockey wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:36 pm
Swervin_Mervin wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:58 pm
Rich B wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:47 pm It’s not just Brexit though, with no majority and a hugely different viewed opposition they’ll never be able to do anything.
This. Our political landscape would need to change significantly for proper coalition government to work effectively in this country. I actually think it did work quite well under the Con-Lib coalition but that was very one-sided with the LD's acting more as a restraint really. And look what happened to them after that - wiped out because of one key policy they had to compromise on.

And that gets to the essence of our democratic sovereignty - we have a system whereby if we don't like it, we clear the lot out. No ifs, buts, or thank yous, and crucially int eh case of the Lib Dems last time, no forgiveness. Piss off and let's see what the next lot can do. This has both obvious up and down sides. But it's fundamentally a very different way of doing things compared to most developed countries that don't have FPTP. Varoufakis wrote a piece that covers this aspect of our democracy and how it has shaped our relationship with the EU and it's other member states.
But it isn't "the next lot", that's the problem, it just goes round the circle again and back to the lot before. With PR there is at least a chance that "the next lot" are indeed new on the scene, with different ideas and agendas. PR isn't perfect either, but it is less flawed by virtue of giving more voters an actual say in who governs them.

i wasn’t taking a view and on the election system. Just that a government without a majority will never be particularly effective.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:47 pm**

Rich B wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:44 pm
DeskJockey wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:36 pm
Swervin_Mervin wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:58 pm

This. Our political landscape would need to change significantly for proper coalition government to work effectively in this country. I actually think it did work quite well under the Con-Lib coalition but that was very one-sided with the LD's acting more as a restraint really. And look what happened to them after that - wiped out because of one key policy they had to compromise on.

And that gets to the essence of our democratic sovereignty - we have a system whereby if we don't like it, we clear the lot out. No ifs, buts, or thank yous, and crucially int eh case of the Lib Dems last time, no forgiveness. Piss off and let's see what the next lot can do. This has both obvious up and down sides. But it's fundamentally a very different way of doing things compared to most developed countries that don't have FPTP. Varoufakis wrote a piece that covers this aspect of our democracy and how it has shaped our relationship with the EU and it's other member states.
But it isn't "the next lot", that's the problem, it just goes round the circle again and back to the lot before. With PR there is at least a chance that "the next lot" are indeed new on the scene, with different ideas and agendas. PR isn't perfect either, but it is less flawed by virtue of giving more voters an actual say in who governs them.
i wasn’t taking a view and on the election system. Just that a government without a majority will never be particularly effective.

That is true. My reply was focused on Swerv's response.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:03 pm**

Yep, the downside is it becomes a merry-go-round!

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:41 am**

There was a referendum on changing to PR voting and it didn’t pass. And we all know that once a referendum has been held, the public is not allowed to change its mind

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:30 am**

Jobbo wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:41 am There was a referendum on changing to PR voting and it didn’t pass. And we all know that once a referendum has been held, the public is not allowed to change its mind

FPTP means FPTP.

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:31 am**

Happy Brexit Day (again) everybody

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:38 am**

Did you manage to get your celebratory 50p coin, Tim? Now worth more than a Lloyds share.

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:55 am**

Jobbo wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:38 am Did you manage to get your celebratory 50p coin, Tim? Now worth more than a Lloyds share.

Sadly not Jobbo.

I do however have several hundred yards of UKIP bunting in the shed which is starting to look a bit mildewed.

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:23 am**

Jobbo wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:38 am Did you manage to get your celebratory 50p coin, Tim? Now worth more than a Lloyds share.

56.7p as of 8.22am.

I am not retiring on that!

Jobbo - when was the referendum to change from FPTP? I have no memory so I assume during my late teens - early twenties or before I was aware?

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:33 am**

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:47 am**

Gavin wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:23 am
Jobbo wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:38 am Did you manage to get your celebratory 50p coin, Tim? Now worth more than a Lloyds share.
56.7p as of 8.22am. I am not retiring on that!

Jobbo - when was the referendum to change from FPTP? I have no memory so I assume during my late teens - early twenties or before I was aware?

2011, Gav.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Un ... referendum

I voted “No”, not because I wanted FPTP, but because they chose what appeared to be the worst version of PR to me at the time.

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:43 am**

NotoriousREV wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:47 am
Gavin wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:23 am
Jobbo wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:38 am Did you manage to get your celebratory 50p coin, Tim? Now worth more than a Lloyds share.
56.7p as of 8.22am. I am not retiring on that!

Jobbo - when was the referendum to change from FPTP? I have no memory so I assume during my late teens - early twenties or before I was aware?
2011, Gav.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Un ... referendum

I voted “No”, not because I wanted FPTP, but because they chose what appeared to be the worst version of PR to me at the time.

Same here. Although I was fairly certain at the time that the vote would be seen as being final with no future chance to try again. In hindsight I wonder if yes would've been better, as it would have at least allowed the possibility of changing the mechanism of the PR system at least.

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:43 am**

I think this is a fairly clear policy from Labour. They are against No Deal, they don't like Boris's deal and once they get a credible deal, they'll put it back to the people.

But: it may be seen as just can-kicking, amongst an electorate bored of Brexit. And it's not a short message which they can keep repeating until it becomes an earworm.

Posted: **Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:48 am**

And what credible leave deal is this? Given that BJ only manage to secure a change to the WA which was actually along the lines of what the EU originally wanted anyway.

OV9

Bye Bye Boris!

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