OV9

Ian in the kitchen

So... water leak. We've so far established it must be between the main stopcock by the front door and the old master stopcock which is under the sink (determined pretty easily by it shutting off all water to the house when turned off). Lifting the boards near the door and halfway down the hall also show it isn't leaking under there so by process of elimination means it must be beneath the kitchen floor which is (predictably) laminate on top of... yep, concrete

We have trace and access insurance with our building policy so we've got a leak detection firm coming in a couple of weeks to destroy the kitchen floor to deal with it.

One other unwelcome discovery however was that on initially lifting the flooring closest to the door I thought the main service pipe had been replaced although I can now see that it is merely the first part and then it is spliced onto the old - and I think pretty certainly, lead - pipe. Now i'm in a quandry as to whether this needs to be replaced and whether in fact a new pipe could be run under the kitchen floor, bypassing the old and leaking lead pipe entirely.

Fuck fuck and double fuck

GG. wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:32 pmWe have trace and access insurance with our building policy so we've got a leak detection firm coming in a couple of weeks to destroy the kitchen floor to deal with it.

I'm sure you've checked the wording already given your profession but when I was dealing with leaks in the hotels I was working on, the insurance only covered the cost of replacing the faulty component that was causing the leak. The demolition and reinstatement costs were not explicitly covered so beware.

JLv3.0 wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:30 am

GG. wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:32 pmWe have trace and access insurance with our building policy so we've got a leak detection firm coming in a couple of weeks to destroy the kitchen floor to deal with it.

I'm sure you've checked the wording already given your profession but when I was dealing with leaks in the hotels I was working on, the insurance only covered the cost of replacing the faulty component that was causing the leak. The demolition and reinstatement costs were not explicitly covered so beware.

Yep - i found the same when we had a leaky bog

NotoriousREV wrote: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:12 am Has anyone here ever had to deal with their local water authority over water pressure? We only get just about the legal minimum (0.7 bar) and when I measure the flow rate from the downstairs taps I only get around 5.5 litres per minute. If they’re hitting the minimum, will they even bother to help? It’s especially annoying as I live a few hundred metres from the water tower that supplies the whole of Liverpool so it’s not as if there should be a shortage of a pressure head.

Engineer came today to test the pressure. I’d already noticed this morning that the pressure seemed a bit higher than usual but put it down to my imagination. He came and tested, it showed 1.5 bar of head on his meter, and he did a flow test that looked fine.

I measured it myself using the same method is before and now I’m getting 7.5 litres/min.

Weird. See if it drops again tomorrow.

7.5l/min is fairly crap. Most combi boilers have a hot water flow rate of over 10l/min, so you typically need a decent amount more than that on the supply.

Not so sure about pressure. I can't recall what ours was when they visited but I was reassured it was actually pretty decent.

So - I'm little further on with the water leak... Legal and General's water repair contractor sent someone round and they confirmed that the leak is under the concrete floor in the kitchen. Congratulations for working out what I told you a week ago.

Essentially there are then two options:

1) dig a hole through the concrete floor in the kitchen and patch the old lead pipe - the insurer will cover this in its entirety less my excess of £300 and a £60 repair fee as it is not a leak caused by accidental damage so they don't cover the repair cost. This is far from desirable as the new virgin lead exposed by the cut and patch leaches more lead contaminant into the water for a period plus it is also likely to just spring a leak from somewhere else, for which the insurer then disclaim all liability.

To add further insult to injury I discovered that the lead pipe also has another pipe tee'd off it which disappears off under the dining room floor. I tracked this all the way round to near the kitchen and then found it had been capped off. This is apparently a 'blind end' or 'dead leg' which is a no-no as it has zero water flow and can result in bacterial build up and contaminate the water supply, including by way of legionnaires Apparently a few centimetres is ok... this is about 4 metres in length!

So if we just pursure the cheapest method not only do we end up with more lead in the supply, the possibility of pin holing somewhere else for which we're not insured, we also have a contamination risk that would not be dealt with.

2) Option 2 is to re-route the supply in a new MDPE / copper pipe via the dining room and behind the kitchen cabinets. The insurer would contribute a flat reimbursement of £810 less the £300 excess but no more as they deem it "betterment". Their pet contractor for these works have quoted £1560 for them to do it

So bascially I'm forcing the contractor to go back to legal and general to ask them to authorise a re-route rather than patch repair on the basis of the dangerous blind end which they'd be leaving in place by just patching it. I appreciate they didn't put that in but they're working on the same stretch of pipe which is currrently not compliant with regs and then patching and leaving it. I gently suggested that may well count as an assumption of liability for the prior contractors negligence (a stretch in reality but no harm to make them have a good hard think!)

Who knows if this will win out but there's no way i'm paying their muppets £750 on top of the excess I've already paid to complete a re-route because that's a standard tarrif they've agree with the insurer. The guy who came out said it was an easy job as there is lots of space under the suspended floor and then it is just a case of drilling a hole through a wall, running it in the space underneath the bottom of the cabinets and then connecting up behind the sink. I expect its a £500 job from anyone else but yet more hassle getting quotes and organising the work myself, plus paying for it and then being reimbursed.

These things are sent to try us, eh?

Sounds like fun. If you're going the route of a new supply pipe, make sure you go for as big a diameter as possible.

Is this a new supply to the external connection? If so who would be paying for that new external connection? You have to beware regarding external connection as I gather that whilst most water utilities will do you a free one under the Lead Replacement scheme, it's generally only for 25mm MDPE. I think a lot charge for bigger dia. than that. Of course, if it's the ins. co. picking up the tab then, as Jobbo says, go big.

Also, I still reckon it would be worth getting another moling contractor to quote.

The external supply to just inside the door has already been replaced by Thames Water (looks to be 25mm MDPE as you say) so we're only dealing with internal from there on in.

We don't have to mole as can re-route above ground through the suspended floor for the most part and then hide behind the cupboards in the kitchen (presumably having switched to copper at that point (hence why £1560 is a piss take for what is involved!).

That's a fvcking monumental piss take! Cost us £700 to mole one, and that involved 4 holes being dug, including 2 through the concrete slab of the garage! And included internal reconnection.

Option 1, then move.

Thankfully the ripping out, knocking through and making good went quicker than planned as things have really slowed down. We've been waiting over 2 weeks for a sink which the builder needs to order worktops, plumb dishwasher, sink waste etc .

1st sink was damaged and not sent but they failed to bother to inform me and the 2nd hasn't arrived despite me paying an extra £18 for a 2 day delivery a week ago

It's stressful stuff living without a proper kitchen we're even arguing about the dates on the ready meals

Looks good!

Is that a warming drawer? I have gone for a matching ovens and combination oven that sit next to each other. The cheeky thing is the combi is smaller and leaves room for an expensive matching warming drawer underneath. I didn’t fancy paying hundreds for a drawer I’d never use so have got the joinery co. to make me a gloss black panel instead!

My wife wants a bank of 4 ovens when we do the kitchen. I have adequate time to persuade her this is pointless and two is plenty.

Rich B wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:34 am Looks good!

Is that a warming drawer? I have gone for a matching ovens and combination oven that sit next to each other. The cheeky thing is the combi is smaller and leaves room for an expensive matching warming drawer underneath. I didn’t fancy paying hundreds for a drawer I’d never use so have got the joinery co. to make me a gloss black panel instead!

Yes my wife wanted one,that end tower has Bosch warming drawer, double oven and then a small 25l microwave. I baulked at the £430 for the warming drawer so bought that one on ebay with damaged packaging for £180. They are handy for keeping food warm if you can't cook everything at the same time like the wife

Carlos wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:46 am

Rich B wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:34 am Looks good!

Is that a warming drawer? I have gone for a matching ovens and combination oven that sit next to each other. The cheeky thing is the combi is smaller and leaves room for an expensive matching warming drawer underneath. I didn’t fancy paying hundreds for a drawer I’d never use so have got the joinery co. to make me a gloss black panel instead!

Yes my wife wanted one,that end tower has Bosch warming drawer, double oven and then a small 25l microwave. I baulked at the £430 for the warming drawer so bought that one on ebay with damaged packaging for £180. They are handy for keeping food warm if you can't cook everything at the same time like the wife

ha! I went straight into eBay too when I saw the price! I even considered buying just the face panel. Thankfully my missus didn’t want one!

Jobbo wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:40 am My wife wants a bank of 4 ovens when we do the kitchen. I have adequate time to persuade her this is pointless and two is plenty.

I know logic goes out the window with women and kitchens but do you foresee an occasion when 4 ovens would be needed ?

Carlos wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:55 am

Jobbo wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:40 am My wife wants a bank of 4 ovens when we do the kitchen. I have adequate time to persuade her this is pointless and two is plenty.

I know logic goes out the window with women and kitchens but do you foresee an occasion when 4 ovens would be needed ?

This will become a point of principal now so Simon best get saving for 6 ovens