X R idiots blocking roads

[ZedLeg]

Just so we're clear, I think the insulate britain people are daftys too. They're doing more harm than good.

I also agree with the idea that making people feel like they're not doing enough is shitty and it's a tactic that companies use to deflect the blame off themselves. Environmental studies funded by BP telling us to use reusable shopping bags can fuck right off .

As said earlier, there isn't an easy answer as even if you and everyone you knew only bought local, seasonal, ethically grown produce it wouldn't make a bit of difference as almost all the damage is being done by big business that'll continue until they're forced to change.

[ZedLeg]

We improved all those things by making huge changes though. Taking lead out of fuel and making road vehicles run much more cleanly in general made a huge difference to a lot of the issues you listed.

so now you're saying we've made huge changes to improve things in the last 20 years? That's pretty much the opposite of what your previous statement was intimating?

It was a joke, in some ways the world is a better place than it was 20 years ago and in some ways it's worse. Which way it's generally trending is clearly up for debate.

[V8Granite]

As said earlier, there isn't an easy answer as even if you and everyone you knew only bought local, seasonal, ethically grown produce it wouldn't make a bit of difference as almost all the damage is being done by big business that'll continue until they're forced to change.

Well that kind of defeatist attitude won’t spur on change.

Times may change but standards must remain. Keep your house in order and others will naturally follow.
If you video 100 people dropping litter in the street by accident, if they knew they were being watched a much greater percentage would make sure they picked it up.
Good and bad deeds are infectious, so what is morally right despite not seeing change and eventually it will happen.

Dave!

[ZedLeg]

It's not defeatist, I'm not the one who keeps voting for the people who let companies away with it

It's not like Tesco is going to see you mending your socks and decide that maybe it shouldn't just bin tonnes of produce that doesn't fit into it's packaging machines.

[V8Granite]

It's not defeatist, I'm not the one who keeps voting for the people who let companies away with it

It's not like Tesco is going to see you mending your socks and decide that maybe it shouldn't just bin tonnes of produce that doesn't fit into it's packaging machines.

On the sock front, but all the same socks, then when one is damaged you don’t need to throw the other one away. Eventually you’ll have another pair again. Baby steps, baby steps

Dave!

[ZedLeg]

Oh I'm fully on board with that. 10 pairs of the same black socks

[Gavster]

As said earlier, there isn't an easy answer as even if you and everyone you knew only bought local, seasonal, ethically grown produce it wouldn't make a bit of difference as almost all the damage is being done by big business that'll continue until they're forced to change.

Well that kind of defeatist attitude won’t spur on change.

Times may change but standards must remain. Keep your house in order and others will naturally follow.
If you video 100 people dropping litter in the street by accident, if they knew they were being watched a much greater percentage would make sure they picked it up.
Good and bad deeds are infectious, so what is morally right despite not seeing change and eventually it will happen.

Dave!

It's not defeatist Dave, it's that your perspective is good and well-intentioned but naive. You can and should to the right morally correct things, as you say, keep your house in order and encourage other to do the same. Same as Zedleg, you're both doing what you feel is right. However, Zed is simply acknowledging that there's an enormous disconnect between grass roots action and high-level change.

If you genuinely want to expedite change then become a politician or C-suite member of a global AgriFood corp.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I also agree with the idea that making people feel like they're not doing enough is shitty and it's a tactic that companies use to deflect the blame off themselves. Environmental studies funded by BP telling us to use reusable shopping bags can fuck right off .

This gets to the heart of the problem we face imo. It's all about deflecting the onus on to the individual and their choices. All whilst the very biggest polluters are allowed to continue.

Cruise ships are a great example of this. More than twice as polluting per passenger mile as long-haul flying. And yet the pressure is on people to reduce the amount they travel by air



Carnival cruise ships more polluting than all of Europe’s cars

[V8Granite]

Yes but people won’t grow up to do that kind of thing if it isn’t instilled in them that it’s the right thing to do.
I’m not expecting that not going to Tescos is making Mr Tesco cry to sleep at night but you certainly won’t see a shift by doing nothing.

You can’t moan about wet shoes if you keep walking in the rain.

One thing Asia has going for it is the mentality of doing things for yourself. They certainly don’t rely on others to change their fortune. I’m not saying that environmentally they are doing a good job but a bit more of that Can Do mentality in the U.K. would go a long way.

Dave!

[Beany]

As I recall, BP or Shell had PR push about making the individual, not the government or mega corps responsible for change (doing your bit, etc) and governments liked that, as it shifted responsibility from them (who can make changes) to us (who individually, cannot on any useful level).

Governments pounced on that and ran with it - and we've not seen massive, high impact, pan governmental/pan industries actions like reducing CFCs, removing lead from petrol etc since for the most part. Because now it's our fault, not their fault.

I'll try to find that tonight, it was new to me when I came across it a few months ago.

[V8Granite]

As I recall, BP or Shell had PR push about making the individual, not the government or mega corps responsible for change (doing your bit, etc) and governments liked that, as it shifted responsibility from them (who can make changes) to us (who individually, cannot on any useful level).

Governments pounced on that and ran with it - and we've not seen massive, high impact, pan governmental/pan industries actions like reducing CFCs, removing lead from petrol etc since for the most part. Because now it's our fault, not their fault.

I'll try to find that tonight, it was new to me when I came across it a few months ago.

She’ll are investing billions into making their rigs and ships they use far more efficient. It’s not a cheap process. I was on a job where they were upgrading all their engines for lower emissions and then adding a huge battery so they didn’t have to run so many engines when drilling and underway.

Dave!

[ZedLeg]

Kind of like filtering the particulates out of the smoke from your tyre fire though. You're still ultimately burning tyres

[V8Granite]

Kind of like filtering the particulates out of the smoke from your tyre fire though. You're still ultimately burning tyres

You’re right, they should stop bothering and just say toodleoo and close their doors.

Dave!

[ZedLeg]

That's the dream

[V8Granite]

That's the dream

I don’t think your dream world looks very nice with all the power cuts, no shipping industry and all that’s connected to it.

You think a positive step is to eat less meat (if I’ve got the right person, I don’t disagree with what you’re doing at all) so you may influence your friends, they maybe influence another 1 in 10 etc etc. eventually there is the need for a vegetarian restaurant, they make nice food, it’s popular, results in 20 tons less meat being eaten in your town. So the market has made a positive shift in your eyes. That can happen all over the country.

You wouldn’t get the same result by shooting a dairy farmer in the head.

Dave!

[ZedLeg]

I get the theory but you have to look at top down change too. Like I said before without meaningful change at a high level it's not going to do a lot.

Most people aren't interested in eating less meat, let alone not using any animal products at all. I've had reactions from curiousity to actual anger when it comes up.

I'm not saying that to be defeatist or imply that it's not worth doing anything. Obviously as I'm a lentil eating ecomentalist .

[V8Granite]

Around half my friends now eat less meat and make the effort to get locally sourced meat. Whether you pick a small bit of litter up or convert to being a living in a tree vegan, they are all steps forward.

Dave!

[duncs500]

Veganism is massively on the up, being with a vegan for the past 10 years the difference in availability of food when eating out between then and now is stark, and that can only have been driven by market forces. I remember the days when I used to have to wonder around towns starving looking for somewhere she could get a meal, now it's almost every place... it's a brave new world.

[duncs500]

We're going to need to spend a lot of time eating peas to get the energy we need to live on a daily basis

If you take a good look at the average person on the high street you'll probably find that reducing their energy intake is precisely what they need, and will probably save the NHS rather a lot in the long run... pea diets all round I say!

[Mito Man]

Don't eat the meat, beat the meat