V8Granite wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:13 pm
He is apparently going to release the Epstein list so will be an interesting read if he does.
Yeah. It’ll be the same day he releases his healthcare plan, coincidentally, the same day I walk on Mars having arrived there on a flying pig.
I’ve asked you this before, I’ll ask again - where are you getting this pro-trump nonsense from ? All I can think of is that you hang around on some US heavy machinery forums ?
I just think the democrats in America are being pretty shitty. It’s not really pro Trump, more anti-democrat.
FBI losing the laptop.
The 2 FBI guys at the storming of the white house.
FBI and the Twitter files.
FBI telling Zuckerberg to repress the Laptop story.
The news channels making it sound like Trump said to school shooting victims to “get over it” which was an outright lie.
Also wanting to suppress free speech, seems totally un-American. The press are being pretty blatant, as some of the interviews for both sides clearly show.
I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything, it’s just my view on the situation.
I don’t know anyone pro Trump as it were and I only go on 2 forums
GG. wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:23 pm
I think what you might be saying is Trump's assertion that he will solve the Russo-Ukranian conflict whilst vaguely implying that would include territorial concessions?
... and there's no issue with that? His stated intent to diminish support for Ukraine is the single biggest issue in European terms. I can see how if one was from the US that you might shrug at that and decide you care more about paying less tax than European stability (or just how self serving / immoral he is), but I can't imagine why anyone who actually lives in Europe would be favour that outcome.
No I didn't say that - I was trying to clarify what the point was. Mito said first term and the response shifted the timeframe of reference to, I think, a criticism of recent pronouncements.
Ukraine losing the Donbas and Crimea in a settlement that ended the war would certainly be a bitter pill to swallow. It is of course only a difference of minor degrees to what Obama (and the West generally) tacitly did in not objecting to the annexation of Ukraine - i.e. hoping it would avert further war.
The problem is the two other options are letting the war drag on interminably with Russia bullying the smaller country (clearly not a great 'win') or growing a remarkably bigger pair of balls that has been shown so far and fully arming Ukraine with all available weaponry. That onus, from a geopolitical perspective should fall on European heads at least as heavily as the US but the key European players are run by a set of shabby socialists who won't fund defence capability (including the UK) so the willingness to go down that route does not seem to be there, e.g. secede territory or let death continue are the available options. You take your preferred poison.
You really think that handing territory over to Russia will cause the deaths to end? If a more powerful nation invaded the UK and a territorial agreement was reached to stop the fighting, do you think it would just be accepted by us? Do you think that the Ukranian people who fall in the wrong side of the border will just be left alone to live in peace?
I think you're massively over simplifying the whole thing personally.
Re: Trump
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:57 pm
by V8Granite
I think Ukraine was fixable (the situation) in the first few weeks. After so long I can’t think of any situation that either side would accept, which is pretty horrific as it means it won’t end.
Dave!
Re: Trump
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:01 pm
by Rich B
This whole Epstein list thing as a concept…
Firstly, we all know he was one of those going there and probably fucking underage trafficked girls.
But secondly, the idea that he has a “list” of others who did it and he’s actually withholding it for political gain?!
Seriously, how fucked up is that?
Re: Trump
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:06 pm
by speedingfine
V8Granite wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:57 pm
I think Ukraine was fixable (the situation) in the first few weeks.
Dave!
Re: Trump
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:09 pm
by IanF
I think if Trump pulled funding for Ukraine, Europe (all of them, not just the EU) would have to radically change their expenditure on the military.. for the realistic term that it’s better to be fighting this war in Ukraine than further west. Trump possibly thinks the same, his previous assertions regarding NATO have certainly increased European funding of it. America still has the biggest stick (by an order of magnitude), Donald Trump doesn’t listen to advisors all the time so is difficult to predict, so it may be the best thing to make Putin pull back. Of course, I don’t think the Ukrainians will let Russia keep the Crimea now, but without US funding, will Europe step in?
It used to be said in Northern Ireland (and Afghanistan) that there is a tolerable level of violence politically; I imagine keeping Ukraine alive but unable to attack is a great money maker for Western economies. Morally wrong, but we all know that morals and politicians don’t mix.
... and there's no issue with that? His stated intent to diminish support for Ukraine is the single biggest issue in European terms. I can see how if one was from the US that you might shrug at that and decide you care more about paying less tax than European stability (or just how self serving / immoral he is), but I can't imagine why anyone who actually lives in Europe would be favour that outcome.
No I didn't say that - I was trying to clarify what the point was. Mito said first term and the response shifted the timeframe of reference to, I think, a criticism of recent pronouncements.
Ukraine losing the Donbas and Crimea in a settlement that ended the war would certainly be a bitter pill to swallow. It is of course only a difference of minor degrees to what Obama (and the West generally) tacitly did in not objecting to the annexation of Ukraine - i.e. hoping it would avert further war.
The problem is the two other options are letting the war drag on interminably with Russia bullying the smaller country (clearly not a great 'win') or growing a remarkably bigger pair of balls that has been shown so far and fully arming Ukraine with all available weaponry. That onus, from a geopolitical perspective should fall on European heads at least as heavily as the US but the key European players are run by a set of shabby socialists who won't fund defence capability (including the UK) so the willingness to go down that route does not seem to be there, e.g. secede territory or let death continue are the available options. You take your preferred poison.
You really think that handing territory over to Russia will cause the deaths to end? If a more powerful nation invaded the UK and a territorial agreement was reached to stop the fighting, do you think it would just be accepted by us? Do you think that the Ukranian people who fall in the wrong side of the border will just be left alone to live in peace?
I think you're massively over simplifying the whole thing personally.
I think you probably don't appreciate the significance of the two areas - Crimea has always been of strategic military importance to Russia as a warm water Black Sea naval port and the Donbas are 30% ethnic Russian and 75% Russian speaking. I mention these points as the key war aims of Russia are largely focused on these areas and not, in reality, a full annexation of Ukraine (which, clearly, is a different logistical exercise altogether) and therefore there is a real possibility that a negotiated settlement could bring an end to the war.
I am obviously aware that this is all the same rationale as the German annexation of the Sudetenland in 1938 and the moral hazard that agreeing to this entails. The reality is, however - as I mentioned -that the alternatives are to let the war continue indefinitely or fully arm Ukraine (with the risk of expanding to draw in other countries). So Trump's suggestion in reality is no more "bad" than either of the others, but obviously it take a more nuance understanding or appreciation of the situation to accept that, rather than an "orange man bad" position.
Re: Trump
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:12 pm
by IanF
Well, appeasement didn’t work so well in the past
Re: Trump
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:13 pm
by GG.
IanF wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:12 pm
Well, appeasement didn’t work so well in the past
Yes and it took a 'warmonger' in Churchill to stop it. I don't see a politician of his ilk hoving into view in any of the relevant nations, do you?
Look - sending in the tanks is certainly a possibility but would involve us agreeing to immediately admit Ukraine to Nato and then backing up our words with actions. I just can't see it happening.
V8Granite wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:13 pm
He is apparently going to release the Epstein list so will be an interesting read if he does.
Yeah. It’ll be the same day he releases his healthcare plan, coincidentally, the same day I walk on Mars having arrived there on a flying pig.
I’ve asked you this before, I’ll ask again - where are you getting this pro-trump nonsense from ? All I can think of is that you hang around on some US heavy machinery forums ?
If he ever releases and Epstein list it will be very heavily redacted
IanF wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:12 pm
Well, appeasement didn’t work so well in the past
Yes and it took a 'warmonger' in Churchill to stop it. I don't see a politician of his ilk hoving into view in any of the relevant nations, do you?
Look - sending in the tanks is certainly a possibility but would involve us agreeing to immediately admit Ukraine to Nato and then backing up our words with actions. I just can't see it happening.
Inaction is also appeasement by another name.
Actually there is one, another Donald T funnily enough: PM of Poland, Donald Tusk.
Re: Trump
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:26 pm
by Mito Man
Ukraine doesn't seem to be doing too well recently, from what I'm reading they now have a shortage of manpower over equipment and are rapidly losing territory in the east. With their attrition rate we will eventually be left with 2 options. Force them to settle the war with Russia by ceding territory or send in troops. .
IanF wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:12 pm
Well, appeasement didn’t work so well in the past
Yes and it took a 'warmonger' in Churchill to stop it. I don't see a politician of his ilk hoving into view in any of the relevant nations, do you?
Look - sending in the tanks is certainly a possibility but would involve us agreeing to immediately admit Ukraine to Nato and then backing up our words with actions. I just can't see it happening.
Inaction is also appeasement by another name.
Actually there is one, another Donald T funnily enough: PM of Poland, Donald Tusk.
With regard to temperament (though he's very much a Barnier-esque bullshitter - all collegiate Euro elite then flipping to preening nationalist to his own people when it suits) but Poland is not a "relevant nation" in any event. In Europe that is limited to the UK and France really from a defence / military capability point of view. Poland can't even send defunct planes to Ukraine without asking Germany's say so.
Yes and it took a 'warmonger' in Churchill to stop it. I don't see a politician of his ilk hoving into view in any of the relevant nations, do you?
Look - sending in the tanks is certainly a possibility but would involve us agreeing to immediately admit Ukraine to Nato and then backing up our words with actions. I just can't see it happening.
Inaction is also appeasement by another name.
Actually there is one, another Donald T funnily enough: PM of Poland, Donald Tusk.
With regard to temperament (though he's very much a Barnier bullshitter - all Euro elite then preening nationalist to his own people when it suits) but Poland is not a "relevant nation" in any event. In Europe that is limited to the UK and France really from a defence / military capability point of view.
Bullshitter=Politician. I agree tbh, but certainly Germany and the UK would stand by the Poles. French would probably help as they hate being left out. Point is if you look at GDP, Russia doesn’t stand a chance, but Putin was lied to by his generals, thought Ukraine would be a cake walk and, to quote a Philly DA, “F around and find out” And despots do anything to maintain their power..
Re: Trump
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:44 pm
by RobYob
GG. wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:13 pm
Look - sending in the tanks is certainly a possibility but would involve us agreeing to immediately admit Ukraine to Nato and then backing up our words with actions. I just can't see it happening.
Inaction is also appeasement by another name.
I believe if Ukraine were given unrestricted access to Western arms they would win. No "NATO" boots need ever be on the ground
Hamstringing Ukraine's long range strike and defensive airpower is madness. Seeing what Ukraine's homegrown fleet of drones did to the Russian magazines I think western cruise missiles would gut Russian military infrastructure very swiftly.
Trump in the whitehouse might mean a temporary reduction in frontline combat, but signing up for a neverending security nightmare in eastern Europe. China is also watching the West's resolve to protect a democracy.
Further a Trump victory would be the end of the USA as we know it. GOP have every intention of making this the last election ever. Blows my mind that nearly half of American voters will still back them.
V8Granite wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 9:13 pm
He is apparently going to release the Epstein list so will be an interesting read if he does.
Yeah. It’ll be the same day he releases his healthcare plan, coincidentally, the same day I walk on Mars having arrived there on a flying pig.
I’ve asked you this before, I’ll ask again - where are you getting this pro-trump nonsense from ? All I can think of is that you hang around on some US heavy machinery forums ?
I just think the democrats in America are being pretty shitty. It’s not really pro Trump, more anti-democrat.
FBI losing the laptop.
The 2 FBI guys at the storming of the white house.
FBI and the Twitter files.
FBI telling Zuckerberg to repress the Laptop story.
The news channels making it sound like Trump said to school shooting victims to “get over it” which was an outright lie.
Also wanting to suppress free speech, seems totally un-American. The press are being pretty blatant, as some of the interviews for both sides clearly show.
I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything, it’s just my view on the situation.
I don’t know anyone pro Trump as it were and I only go on 2 forums
Dave!
Not wanting to get into whataboutism but Musk has already admitted messing with twitter data to favour trump and he’s being sued for his $1mil not a lottery.
Also RFK in charge of the CDC would be a genuine public health disaster.
For all that I’m not a fan of Harris, she’s a professional politician. Trump and his hanger ons are a freak show
Re: Trump
Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2024 11:53 pm
by KiwiDave
ZedLeg wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:52 pm
Not wanting to get into whataboutism but Musk has already admitted messing with twitter data to favour trump and he’s being sued for his $1mil not a lottery.
Also RFK in charge of the CDC would be a genuine public health disaster.
For all that I’m not a fan of Harris, she’s a professional politician. Trump and his hanger ons are a freak show
I think this almost hits the nail on the head. At this stage it's not even about whether you like Harris and her policies or not, it's just making sure the biggest group of absolute cunts you could ever hope for are kept out of office. If they get in the damage they do will take decades to fix, if it's ever possible.
And despots do anything to maintain their power..