OV9

evostick wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:06 am

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:04 am We had a civil war around 370 years ago - why do you want to have another?

Thin out the deadwood. Dave and Beany for a start.

dan wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:16 am I think it'll be exactly the same but some things will get a lot more expensive.

Broccers wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:18 am

dan wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:16 am I think it'll be exactly the same but some things will get a lot more expensive.

and some things will get cheaper.

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:12 am Ignoring the leave/remain divide for a moment, whatever the outcome on 31 October or whatever extended deadline may come up, what do people think this country will be like? If we had a second referendum and voted to remain, that wouldn't be the end of it. If we leave, that would also not be the end of it; there'd be some Farage-like counterpart banging on about rejoining the EU. And every single inconvenience, expense or delay at the border would niggle away at individuals, giving that person traction.

Is there a middle ground? Perhaps; what about the Norway type deals people have talked about? Being out of the EU but in single market and customs union, but having to cede control to the ECJ on matters relating to trade with Europe (there always has to be a forum for resolution of cross-border deals). Is that something that leave supporters would even countenance? It could be a nice stable existence which knocks the leave/remain argument into a minority discussion.

Richard wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:22 am

Broccers wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:18 am

dan wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:16 am I think it'll be exactly the same but some things will get a lot more expensive.

and some things will get cheaper.

What things will be cheaper?

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:24 am The latter is exactly what I've been banging on about for a while. As far as I can see it's the only way to bring two increasingly divided sides together. You both get a bit of the respective pies you want, just not all of them.

What's the deal with the ECJ/trade aspect btw? I know EFTA has its own Court and I understood that it could essentially veto certain trade requirements of the EU, but I can't recall the detail.

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:24 am

Richard wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:22 am

Broccers wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:18 am

and some things will get cheaper.

What things will be cheaper?

Possibly milk, cheese etc; until the farmers stop producing because it's not cost-effective, when they'll become rare and expensive.

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:26 am

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:24 am The latter is exactly what I've been banging on about for a while. As far as I can see it's the only way to bring two increasingly divided sides together. You both get a bit of the respective pies you want, just not all of them.

What's the deal with the ECJ/trade aspect btw? I know EFTA has its own Court and I understood that it could essentially veto certain trade requirements of the EU, but I can't recall the detail.

I'm not convinced there's sufficient will to compromise on either side to reach a Norway style deal; anyway, Norway might not be subject to the ECJ's jurisdiction but I suggested it as a sensible forum for resolution of disputes cross-border for the UK and EU. That's not automatically the case.

Broccers wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:28 am

Jobbo wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:24 am

Richard wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:22 am

What things will be cheaper?

Possibly milk, cheese etc; until the farmers stop producing because it's not cost-effective, when they'll become rare and expensive.

The items that will have less eu imposed tariffs

dan wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:33 am Does anyone actually know or have examples of any of these and how they are likely to change though? Specifically relating to day to day items that we all buy / use / eat etc? I know I don't and a quick google to find the answer isn't very straight forward it seems.

Gwaredd wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:40 am Even after all this time, I'm still not sure what would be best. One day, I'll stay with my original plan of remaining, with the idea that we're all better off together as a united Europe. But then another day, I'll be left thinking 'why is the EU making it so difficult for us to leave - why are they trying to trip us up?' Is it because deep down, they know we'll thrive out of the EU & other countries will see this & follow suit leading to the collapse if the EU? Something stinks & I'm not sure what.

Also, and this is the Gods honest truth, I've yet to meet (as in person, not on here) in real life anyone who voted leave that isn't a thick or uneducated knuckle dragging racist that has pie in the sky ideas that by voting leave, we'll soon get back to the good old days - Rule Brttania et al!

One thing for sure, regardless of what happens, Brexit has shown the public how innept our leaders are (again) and how little control the EU actually had over us. Yes, our own government made the majority of those stupid decisions that have led us here, while other EU countries sat back, laughed & thrived.

Unless there's a massive shake up in the way our government works, things will carry on the same - in or out of the EU.

But the biggest deception is this: we could easily have taken back control of our borders already under European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC, which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to support themselves. In this month’s debate on the House of Lords EU subcommittee report on EU migration, I challenged the government on why we were not availing ourselves of this directive – and I got no response.

Beany wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:46 am Dave, good chops for having the balls to actually back up your position. However, it comes back to my point about people being hoodwinked.

We do have controls of our borders. We've effectively always had it.

But the biggest deception is this: we could easily have taken back control of our borders already under European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC, which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to support themselves. In this month’s debate on the House of Lords EU subcommittee report on EU migration, I challenged the government on why we were not availing ourselves of this directive – and I got no response.

Now, you could argue that ghetto-isation would still occur even with tighter immigration controls - but that's a local government issue at that point, not an immigration issue because the government would have acted upon the concerns of their citizens and it would then be down to local authorities to deal with issues of social cohesion and integration (which they are far better placed to do than national government, due to them being on top of the realities on the ground).

The full article is worth a skim as it covers a lot of the absolute horseshit that was thrown about during the campaigns about immigration.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ive-brexit

Gwaredd wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:40 am 'why is the EU making it so difficult for us to leave - why are they trying to trip us up?' Is it because deep down, they know we'll thrive out of the EU & other countries will see this & follow suit leading to the collapse if the EU?