OV9

Just seen that Trump said Ukraine should never have started the war.

There must be some crazy shit going on with parallel universes combining?

I think we are obviously at the point where we look after ourselves; and by that I mean Europe, including Ukraine and all the Eastern European countries that border Russia, need to stop relying on the US, spend more on defence and show Putin that they aren’t the pushover he thinks we are! It may be a more divisive world than we hoped we would give our children, but it’s a million times better than the alternative.

The fact that the USA met Russia to discuss the war without even Ukraine involvement tells me everything I need to know about US involvement for the next 4 years.

Mito Man wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 11:40 pm Just seen that Trump said Ukraine should never have started the war.

Yep. The fact it’s even being described as a war, when it’s an invasion that the oppressed party are defending.

Well I thought Covid and then Ukraine, and all the increasing political turmoil would surely result in us going for greater independence but the opposite has been happening and at an even faster rate.

Just to be clear, does anyone think trump ISN'T a russian asset? Please raise your hand?

This, along with all the other pro-russian actions they've taken since 20/1. Him and musk need to be Luigi'd.

The problem is the majority of the sort of people who'd normally be bonkers enough to try that are currently gleeful at the fact that they're hurting the queers and the browns and woman, etc.

You know, the ones who haven't worked out that eventually, they'll be added to the list of people having their neck stomped on, given enough time.

IanF wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:09 am I think we are obviously at the point where we look after ourselves; and by that I mean Europe, including Ukraine and all the Eastern European countries that border Russia, need to stop relying on the US, spend more on defence

This us exactly what trump was saying should happen a few weeks ago.

That’s one way to get what you want.

Beany wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 1:15 am The problem is the majority of the sort of people who'd normally be bonkers enough to try that are currently gleeful at the fact that they're hurting the queers and the browns and woman, etc.

You know, the ones who haven't worked out that eventually, they'll be added to the list of people having their neck stomped on, given enough time.

Yup, in this country the energy from waste plants were the bees knees, an environmentally better option for power generation, and coal was the devil. Coal is gone so now the efw plants are the new devil. Once anyone with views that something needs gone gets their way they don’t go “annndddddd relaxxxxxxxx” they find some other shit to get worked up over. President trusk? mump? Will find someone else to shit on soon enough

mik wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:48 pm Fuck me. Anyone else watching Newsnight on BBC2 with Carla Sands speaking on behalf of the Trump Administration? What an absolute shit spout.

https://x.com/BBCNewsnight/status/18919 ... CNewsnight

Drank the kool aid.

mik wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:48 pm Fuck me. Anyone else watching Newsnight on BBC2 with Carla Sands speaking on behalf of the Trump Administration? What an absolute shit spout.

Cheers Chris - adding a direct iplayer link for those without twitter accounts. Sands is on from 7min30. Facts no longer matter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... orld-order

Rich B wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 6:13 am

IanF wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:09 am I think we are obviously at the point where we look after ourselves; and by that I mean Europe, including Ukraine and all the Eastern European countries that border Russia, need to stop relying on the US, spend more on defence

This us exactly what trump was saying should happen a few weeks ago.

That’s one way to get what you want.

It might not be exactly the way he wants it though.

I think that Trump's comments last week probably mark the end of NATO as we know it.
The cornerstone of NATO is trust that. when push comes to drone strike, everyone will honour their article 5 commitments. Trump just revealed that he will not necessarily honour anything that he doesn't feel like that day. He is already reneging on two treaties signed with Ukraine (1994 security guarantees in exchange for Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons, and the 2024 agreement signed with Biden), so why would anyone believe he would honour his NATO commitments is it didn't suit his purposes?

Would you carry on paying insurance premiums when the company time and time again refuses to pay out on claims?

speedingfine wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 7:57 am

mik wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:48 pm Fuck me. Anyone else watching Newsnight on BBC2 with Carla Sands speaking on behalf of the Trump Administration? What an absolute shit spout.

https://x.com/BBCNewsnight/status/18919 ... CNewsnight

Drank the kool aid.

That link doesn't work for me - has Musk removed it?

Jobbo wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 8:37 am

speedingfine wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 7:57 am

mik wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2025 10:48 pm Fuck me. Anyone else watching Newsnight on BBC2 with Carla Sands speaking on behalf of the Trump Administration? What an absolute shit spout.

https://x.com/BBCNewsnight/status/18919 ... CNewsnight

Drank the kool aid.

That link doesn't work for me - has Musk removed it?

Works for me. Aside from it being utterly vomit-inducing.

Nefarious wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 8:11 am

Rich B wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 6:13 am

IanF wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:09 am I think we are obviously at the point where we look after ourselves; and by that I mean Europe, including Ukraine and all the Eastern European countries that border Russia, need to stop relying on the US, spend more on defence

This us exactly what trump was saying should happen a few weeks ago.

That’s one way to get what you want.

It might not be exactly the way he wants it though.

I think that Trump's comments last week probably mark the end of NATO as we know it.
The cornerstone of NATO is trust that. when push comes to drone strike, everyone will honour their article 5 commitments. Trump just revealed that he will not necessarily honour anything that he doesn't feel like that day. He is already reneging on two treaties signed with Ukraine (1994 security guarantees in exchange for Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons, and the 2024 agreement signed with Biden), so why would anyone believe he would honour his NATO commitments is it didn't suit his purposes?

Would you carry on paying insurance premiums when the company time and time again refuses to pay out on claims?

Is that not what i said? he wants europe to up their defence spending and not have the US involved as much. Now we’re talking about upping our spending because we can’t rely on the US being involved as much.

Old news, but Trump definitely doesn't have any "interesting" personal links with Russian Oligarchs.

240PP wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 8:53 am

Jobbo wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 8:37 am

speedingfine wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 7:57 am

https://x.com/BBCNewsnight/status/18919 ... CNewsnight

Drank the kool aid.

That link doesn't work for me - has Musk removed it?

Works for me. Aside from it being utterly vomit-inducing.

I watched it on Newsnight, but it would only open in the app on my phone now I've tried other ways. Not in browser on my phone and not in Chrome on PC. Oh well, if Elon has broken his toy website then that's his problem.

mik wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 9:00 am Old news, but Trump definitely doesn't have any "interesting" personal links with Russian Oligarchs.

He's been a Russian asset for decades pushing anti-NATO talking points and it's constantly surprising nobody seems to remember it.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... y-new-book

Then, in 1987, Trump and Ivana visited Moscow and St Petersburg for the first time. Shvets said he was fed KGB talking points and flattered by KGB operatives who floated the idea that he should go into politics.

On 1 September, he took out a full-page advert in the New York Times, Washington Post and Boston Globe headlined: “There’s nothing wrong with America’s Foreign Defense Policy that a little backbone can’t cure.”

The ad offered some highly unorthodox opinions in Ronald Reagan’s cold war America, accusing ally Japan of exploiting the US and expressing scepticism about US participation in Nato. It took the form of an open letter to the American people “on why America should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves”.

IanF wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:09 am I think we are obviously at the point where we look after ourselves; and by that I mean Europe, including Ukraine and all the Eastern European countries that border Russia, need to stop relying on the US, spend more on defence and show Putin that they aren’t the pushover he thinks we are! It may be a more divisive world than we hoped we would give our children, but it’s a million times better than the alternative.

This unfortunately. We need a European Army. And I don't think Putin sees Europe as a pushover as such, the UK & France have their own nuclear deterrents, but obviously without US support we would have a hard time in the event of a ground offensive. If/when a ceasefire happens in Ukraine, Russia will be frantically rebuilding its military ready for another go. We'll need to match or even exceed whatever they do. We'll be back to a traditional arms race.

IanF wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 12:09 am The fact that the USA met Russia to discuss the war without even Ukraine involvement tells me everything I need to know about US involvement for the next 4 years.

It wasn't a peace discussion, it was a business discussion. Russians & Nazis agreeing how to carve up Eastern Europe between them. Kinda like last time.

Rich B wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2025 8:58 am Is that not what i said? he wants europe to up their defence spending and not have the US involved as much. Now we’re talking about upping our spending because we can’t rely on the US being involved as much.

What Trump *appears* to want is for NATO to continue as is, but with America paying less, everyone else paying more, and him in effective sole control of the whole shooting match.

What I'm suggesting he'll end up getting instead, is a realigning of military alliances globally, with either the USA going it alone, or in some shaky coalition with some of the shadier international players.

He *might* think that's absolutely fine. The US is, after all, the biggest kid in the playground. However, one thing that even dyed-in-the-wool MAGAs hate is American soldiers coming home in body bags. If he's flying solo, that will happen an awful lot more, and it will happen without the implicit legitimacy that acting as part of NATO brings. Maybe he reckons he can gaslight his way through that (and maybe he's right), but taking effective control of NATO and having others share the burden and blame must surely be plan A.

It's ironic because US is the only member to invoke art 5 after 11/9, and everyone else stepped up. Funny how things go huh?