Bye bye Starmer

[Jobbo]

Sweden is interesting - I wasn't aware of those differences. Obviously there are plenty of places with entirely different systems with low tax; Dubai for example. But the economies are entirely different, there's no social security or NHS, there are real haves/have-nots divides etc. Even in the US which is ostensibly a similar economy to ours but bigger, people are expected not to have much at all in the way of holidays off work and have to pay for private healthcare, highly variable local taxes etc. So beware of drawing too many comparisons without looking at the whole picture.

Doesn't Sweden still have one of the highest suicide rates?

[Jobbo]

Be interesting to see what effect the IHT changes have on smaller farming operations. Seems to me like they've just been well and truly screwed over.

Farming is an interesting one. HarryM has posted a tweet saying similar. The thing is, how many farms the size of Harry's are actually viable as a business? Harry seems barely to make a profit, if at all, from his. The subsidies and incentives now we are out of the EU seem to favour keeping land fallow. The main purpose of farms that size seems to have become as an inheritance tax dodge. So I understand what is being addressed. Not sure if the proposals actually work though.

[Carlos]

Pension funds will be included in the value of your estate for IHT from April 2027!

[Simon]

Fuel duty rise would've been inflationary, which would in turn increase government borrow costs, so Reeves was probably keen to avoid that this year.

[Swervin_Mervin]

Sweden is interesting - I wasn't aware of those differences. Obviously there are plenty of places with entirely different systems with low tax; Dubai for example. But the economies are entirely different, there's no social security or NHS, there are real haves/have-nots divides etc. Even in the US which is ostensibly a similar economy to ours but bigger, people are expected not to have much at all in the way of holidays off work and have to pay for private healthcare, highly variable local taxes etc. So beware of drawing too many comparisons without looking at the whole picture.

Doesn't Sweden still have one of the highest suicide rates?

I'm going to delve deeper into the Sweden thing. Might even start learning the language! Corporation tax is lower there as well so maybe my company should HQ over there and then have a UK office

In terms of suicide rates, I don't believe it's especially high anymore, no. Same for Norway and Finland. We do seem to have a relatively low suicide rate in this country though, only comparable to Spain and Italy. Most of the rest of the EU is higher.

Interactive map here: https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

[Simon]

Be interesting to see what effect the IHT changes have on smaller farming operations. Seems to me like they've just been well and truly screwed over.

Farming is an interesting one. HarryM has posted a tweet saying similar. The thing is, how many farms the size of Harry's are actually viable as a business? Harry seems barely to make a profit, if at all, from his. The subsidies and incentives now we are out of the EU seem to favour keeping land fallow. The main purpose of farms that size seems to have become as an inheritance tax dodge. So I understand what is being addressed. Not sure if the proposals actually work though.

Clarkson bought his farm as an IHT dodge. He has said as much.

[Carlos]

Phew!.. not a bad budget imho. The childish nature of our HoC is bloody embarrassing though!

I was expecting a wealth tax, which I’d rather have instead of IHT to remove the issue that Jobbo describes. Surprised by fuel duty staying the same and NI change will affect every business differently, but seems reasonable.

2% extra 2nd home - ugh so an extra £10k bill on a £500k home purchase, or more in my case because I still own the property my ex and daughter live in; great !

There are exemptions regarding additional property stamp duty as a result of divorce/separation.

[Mito Man]

I was reading about the tax structure in Sweden last night. Was genuinely surprised that they don't have IHT. I work on the assumption that if the sensible and efficient Swedes don't do it, then we should probably follow suit.

No wealth tax anymore either over there. The bulk of income tax is paid locally, with only higher earners paying a state income tax. The more I read the more I thought it sounded like an eminently sensible and considerably more transparent setup.

That’s interesting.

In an ideal world we would start from scratch as our benefit and tax system is a nightmare. As long as people are paying the taxes they owe, I don’t really care which piles the money is coming from.

Totally agree.

I find it a fascinating place really, but will keep my thoughts for the Sweden thread which I'll update soon. They have issues, as does every country, but there seems to be much more of a sense that everyone is in it together over there, whether they're a waitress or a banker. I think @DeskJockey has touched on this before about the deep-seated divisions in this country which only serve to fuel our stagnation.

Sweden is a data driven country, and it’s not like here where a biased company with an agenda will carry out the study. They realised cutting/removing taxes would be a net benefit economically and implemented it.
There’s also no taxes on family members giving each other money because a tax on a tax is a stupid thing.
Also something drastically different is that there isn’t the rich poor psychology thing going on which doesn’t actually serve to improve anything here but rather stirs up friction.
Egalitarianism is rooted in the fabric of society.
So removing taxes doesn’t result in a toxic wave of “but the rich will get even richer” - people can see past that and realise that a better economy benefits every member of society.

[Swervin_Mervin]

That’s interesting.

In an ideal world we would start from scratch as our benefit and tax system is a nightmare. As long as people are paying the taxes they owe, I don’t really care which piles the money is coming from.

Totally agree.

I find it a fascinating place really, but will keep my thoughts for the Sweden thread which I'll update soon. They have issues, as does every country, but there seems to be much more of a sense that everyone is in it together over there, whether they're a waitress or a banker. I think @DeskJockey has touched on this before about the deep-seated divisions in this country which only serve to fuel our stagnation.

Sweden is a data driven country, and it’s not like here where a biased company with an agenda will carry out the study. They realised cutting/removing taxes would be a net benefit economically and implemented it.
There’s also no taxes on family members giving each other money because a tax on a tax is a stupid thing.
Also something drastically different is that there isn’t the rich poor psychology thing going on which doesn’t actually serve to improve anything here but rather stirs up friction.
Egalitarianism is rooted in the fabric of society.
So removing taxes doesn’t result in a toxic wave of “but the rich will get even richer” - people can see past that and realise that a better economy benefits every member of society.

Thank you! You've essentially confirmed what I had come to largely via guesswork. My wife used to work for AZ and someone in her team was based in Gothenburg. She visited a few times which is what led to us going there 18mo ago and then Stockholm this time. The one thing she repeatedly says is that Sweden is data driven, and if something doesn't work then they're happy to admit so and change it.

[Mito Man]

Also just seen the suicide rates post. I can only go off my dad but apparently Sweden had a massive drinking problem decades ago, like how we imagine Russians now. It’s why alcohol is still sold in government stores. But heavy drinking and the permanent cold darkness of winter was usually attributed to it.

[V8Granite]

Also just seen the suicide rates post. I can only go off my dad but apparently Sweden had a massive drinking problem decades ago, like how we imagine Russians now. It’s why alcohol is still sold in government stores. But heavy drinking and the permanent cold darkness of winter was usually attributed to it.

It’s exactly the same in Finland and to a lesser extent Norway.

I also think Bergen in Norway had a high suicide rate due to students coming in from outside and studying in one of the wettest cities in the world. I don’t know if it’s enough to mess with the average though.

Dave!

[DeskJockey]

I was reading about the tax structure in Sweden last night. Was genuinely surprised that they don't have IHT. I work on the assumption that if the sensible and efficient Swedes don't do it, then we should probably follow suit.

No wealth tax anymore either over there. The bulk of income tax is paid locally, with only higher earners paying a state income tax. The more I read the more I thought it sounded like an eminently sensible and considerably more transparent setup.

That’s interesting.

In an ideal world we would start from scratch as our benefit and tax system is a nightmare. As long as people are paying the taxes they owe, I don’t really care which piles the money is coming from.

Totally agree.

I find it a fascinating place really, but will keep my thoughts for the Sweden thread which I'll update soon. They have issues, as does every country, but there seems to be much more of a sense that everyone is in it together over there, whether they're a waitress or a banker. I think @DeskJockey has touched on this before about the deep-seated divisions in this country which only serve to fuel our stagnation.

I have indeed mentioned this before. Interestingly it seems Denmark is possibly heading too far in the other direction with so many parties and fragmentation within and between that it is difficult to keep track and understand who stands for what.

However, when everything is basically a binary disctinction the obvious and easy route is to just focus on "the other" and that way not have to worry too much about anything else. There is a perennial scapegoat to hand, and the more you entrench attitudes in your core, the easier it becomes to maintain a healthy voter base. This then means you (mostly) only have to court the swing/undecided voters, and there you have the mess both the UK and US are in.

I'm not sure if we're seeing the complete failure of the "Imagined Community" or whether it is fracturing, but still (for now?) holding together. I think the idea that we're all something together and have something in common based on an imagined set of actions or traits is wearing dangerously thin as sides retreat further and further away from each other and lose the ability to have a meaningful conversation or indeed find common ground. Look no further than the Brexit "debate" for evidence.

[Jobbo]

Going back to the budget for a moment, my corporate colleagues have pointed out that the CGT increase takes effect from today (ignoring the Business Asset Disposal Relief which still applies the old rate until next April if you qualify). Direct quote:

Capital Gains Tax Rates – The lower and higher main rates of Capital Gains Tax will increase to 18% and 24% respectively for disposals made on or after 30 October 2024. The rate for Business Asset Disposal Relief and Investors’ Relief will increase to 14% from 6 April 2025, and will increase again to match the lower main rate at 18% from 6 April 2026.

That means any deals dated this morning will be caught by the higher CGT rate despite having been signed before the budget announcement. Bit unfair, and perhaps unenforceable (is anyone going to be taking enough of a financial hit to judicially review this?). There are a few other measures which apply including today as well. There is a specific distinction from SDLT on additional homes which increases with effect from tomorrow.

@GG. I hope this does not affect any of your clients. I think (by good fortune) none of ours have been caught.

[Swervin_Mervin]

Going back to the budget for a moment, my corporate colleagues have pointed out that the CGT increase takes effect from today (ignoring the Business Asset Disposal Relief which still applies the old rate until next April if you qualify). Direct quote:

Capital Gains Tax Rates – The lower and higher main rates of Capital Gains Tax will increase to 18% and 24% respectively for disposals made on or after 30 October 2024. The rate for Business Asset Disposal Relief and Investors’ Relief will increase to 14% from 6 April 2025, and will increase again to match the lower main rate at 18% from 6 April 2026.

That means any deals dated this morning will be caught by the higher CGT rate despite having been signed before the budget announcement. Bit unfair, and perhaps unenforceable (is anyone going to be taking enough of a financial hit to judicially review this?). There are a few other measures which apply including today as well. There is a specific distinction from SDLT on additional homes which increases with effect from tomorrow.

@GG. I hope this does not affect any of your clients. I think (by good fortune) none of ours have been caught.

Ooh that seems a bit mean. Could have at least gone with the logical date of 1st Nov.

[Rich B]

made me laugh…

[Jimexpl]

Be interesting to see what effect the IHT changes have on smaller farming operations. Seems to me like they've just been well and truly screwed over.

Farming is an interesting one. HarryM has posted a tweet saying similar. The thing is, how many farms the size of Harry's are actually viable as a business? Harry seems barely to make a profit, if at all, from his. The subsidies and incentives now we are out of the EU seem to favour keeping land fallow. The main purpose of farms that size seems to have become as an inheritance tax dodge. So I understand what is being addressed. Not sure if the proposals actually work though.

The remaining generational farms around my parent's village (south Leicestershire) tend to be held in trusts, so I presume the IHT changes are not applicable?

[dinny_g]

Good for your father in law Dinny. Based on that lets make inheritance tax 100% and let the state provide

- typical response. Go from some Inheritance tax income to Zero Inheritance tax income

But I know you’re only joking.

[IanF]

I didn’t realise VED was doubling for new petrol cars from April.. an extra £2.4k on a new M3. Plus (the already announced) VED for electric vehicles, seems we are trying to get people out of cars again

[Jobbo]

Be interesting to see what effect the IHT changes have on smaller farming operations. Seems to me like they've just been well and truly screwed over.

Farming is an interesting one. HarryM has posted a tweet saying similar. The thing is, how many farms the size of Harry's are actually viable as a business? Harry seems barely to make a profit, if at all, from his. The subsidies and incentives now we are out of the EU seem to favour keeping land fallow. The main purpose of farms that size seems to have become as an inheritance tax dodge. So I understand what is being addressed. Not sure if the proposals actually work though.

The remaining generational farms around my parent's village (south Leicestershire) tend to be held in trusts, so I presume the IHT changes are not applicable?

That might be the case, yes. For people who haven’t already, it may be that putting them into companies or LLPs would be the way to go - I don’t know what the rules will be in detail.

[Jobbo]

I didn’t realise VED was doubling for new petrol cars from April.. an extra £2.4k on a new M3. Plus (the already announced) VED for electric vehicles, seems we are trying to get people out of cars again

That sounds like the first VED which you don’t notice because it’s part of the on the road price. But I am hoping our Cayenne is delivered in March