Bye Bye Sunak..

[Jobbo]

Dave is scared by them/of them, though.

[ZedLeg]

Dave’s still conflating two issues, trans people being allowed to use the right bathroom and unisex bathrooms being put in places where they may not be appropriate.

No one is asking for every toilet to be unisex, it’s a half measure folk in charge put in to avoid dealing with the actual problem.

Which is (in my view) transphobes trying to stop trans people living their life as they’ve always done.

[V8Granite]

I find the toilets thing hilarious because we all grew up with unisex toilets in our homes and then suddenly people are worried about whether a person with a penis will be in the next cubicle. I literally live with a trans man (my lodger) and there is zero drama about anything to do with our respective gender identities.

Of course the subject is complicated because it is fundamentally awkward to insert a spectrum of gender identities into a society that is historically built around two binary gender identities. For example, my lodger identifies as a trans man, as opposed to a man, and actively seeks out specifically queer/trans spaces in society that are not for cisgender people, and those spaces can be scant.

Starmer's comments are harmful because of the division they cause, because we're not sophisticated enough in our thinking about integrating trans people in society to apply blanket statements like that. He really should have kept his mouth shut and thought about this a bit more.

However any hysteria (especially online) about the subject really is a result of extreme ends of the scale. People like JK Rowling are simply being actively antagonistic and totally unhelpful. Equally, pointing to a dude who put on a dress and went off and raped someone is not representative of the trans community either.

No you don’t share a space with people in your house, you shut the door to a room. In schools you have teenage boys running about being teenage boys and generally more timid girls in a very awkward part of their lives too scared to pee in school. That’s unacceptable.

After spending a weekend in Brighton it was very clear that I saw more transvestite men with beards (maybe it was just men in a dress and not transvestites) then the issue might not be as emotive for people. If I wore a dress and lipstick and sauntered into a woman’s toilet, I’d fully expect to hear shouting and screaming. As they would want a convincing transvestite just doesn’t stand out.

As with everything, if the extremes on each end would fuck off, everyone would be far happier.

Dave!

The bearded guys in women's clothing were most likely in drag, not trans women. They do it for fun as a performance and don't live their lives looking like that, nor do they identify as trans or female. Very often they're gay/queer men who will use the men's toilet alongside you too.

Trans people don't want to scare kids in schools either Dave. I doubt there's anyone who actively does.

They were men with beards in women’s clothes using the women’s toilets. I don’t know how else I’m supposed to see it ?

Dave!

[V8Granite]

Dave is scared by them/of them, though.

I had my Essex wife with me, I’m far more scared of her

Dave!

[Jobbo]

Dave is scared by them/of them, though.

I had my Essex wife with me, I’m far more scared of her

Dave!

I was just being cheeky of course, but with a genuine point: why are you so concerned about other people’s choices? It doesn’t harm you (or anyone, other than themselves potentially). Don’t get bamboozled by the propaganda that women’s prisons are going to be filled with rapists now identifying as women.

[Jobbo]

They were men with beards in women’s clothes using the women’s toilets. I don’t know how else I’m supposed to see it ?

Dave!

Don’t go in the ladies’ loo. In a dress or otherwise.

Ladies’ loos are pretty much always just cubicles anyway. So you’d only be watching the bearded lady washing their hands I guess.

[ZedLeg]

This is the most frustrating thing about it all. It’s been proven in polling that most people don’t consider it an important issue.

IMG_1347.jpeg (229.93 KiB) Viewed 475 times

[V8Granite]

They were men with beards in women’s clothes using the women’s toilets. I don’t know how else I’m supposed to see it ?

Dave!

Don’t go in the ladies’ loo. In a dress or otherwise.

Ladies’ loos are pretty much always just cubicles anyway. So you’d only be watching the bearded lady washing their hands I guess.

It was noted by some people in the group but the group I was in would happily go into a truckers toilet if they needed a wee. My mum certainly would not like it at all.

Dave!

[V8Granite]

Dave is scared by them/of them, though.

I had my Essex wife with me, I’m far more scared of her

Dave!

I was just being cheeky of course, but with a genuine point: why are you so concerned about other people’s choices? It doesn’t harm you (or anyone, other than themselves potentially). Don’t get bamboozled by the propaganda that women’s prisons are going to be filled with rapists now identifying as women.

It was never really on my radar till my friends daughter had/ has big problems with it and she is just told to deal with it, I think it’s not right and certainly don’t think my 2 boys who are lovely caring sensible boys to always act in a way which won’t make it awkward for girls. Just bits being brash and loud doesn’t make a nice environment.

Dave!

[Gavster]

No you don’t share a space with people in your house, you shut the door to a room. In schools you have teenage boys running about being teenage boys and generally more timid girls in a very awkward part of their lives too scared to pee in school. That’s unacceptable.

After spending a weekend in Brighton it was very clear that I saw more transvestite men with beards (maybe it was just men in a dress and not transvestites) then the issue might not be as emotive for people. If I wore a dress and lipstick and sauntered into a woman’s toilet, I’d fully expect to hear shouting and screaming. As they would want a convincing transvestite just doesn’t stand out.

As with everything, if the extremes on each end would fuck off, everyone would be far happier.

Dave!

The bearded guys in women's clothing were most likely in drag, not trans women. They do it for fun as a performance and don't live their lives looking like that, nor do they identify as trans or female. Very often they're gay/queer men who will use the men's toilet alongside you too.

Trans people don't want to scare kids in schools either Dave. I doubt there's anyone who actively does.

They were men with beards in women’s clothes using the women’s toilets. I don’t know how else I’m supposed to see it ?

Dave!

Okay, so maybe they were trans, and what was the specific problem they were causing that day?

[V8Granite]

They made a few of the women in the group uncomfortable.

Completely understandable.

Dave!

[dinny_g]

I wouldn't want to be accused of commenting on things that don't apply to me (Misogynistic Mansplaining) but I think Trans Use of traditionally "Female" Bathrooms isn't really the issue. As Jobbo said, they're (I assume - I've never been in one) cubicles so basins and mirrors etc are the only "shared" space

I think people who might have concerns might have am issue with changing rooms at gyms, swimming pools etc where people will often be naked or semi-naked in the view of others.

Most public changing rooms I've been in on the continent (France, Austria, Italy) have Male, Female and Family section which would seem like a sensible compromise allowing the majority of people their preferred space. (But there are still going to be people and groups not happy)

[ZedLeg]

How often do you walk around public changing rooms with your cock out?

[V8Granite]

I wouldn't want to be accused of commenting on things that don't apply to me (Misogynistic Mansplaining) but I think Trans Use of traditionally "Female" Bathrooms isn't really the issue. As Jobbo said, they're (I assume - I've never been in one) cubicles so basins and mirrors etc are the only "shared" space

I think people who might have concerns might have am issue with changing rooms at gyms, swimming pools etc where people will often be naked or semi-naked in the view of others.

Most public changing rooms I've been in on the continent (France, Austria, Italy) have Male, Female and Family section which would seem like a sensible compromise allowing the majority of people their preferred space. (But there are still going to be people and groups not happy)

Agreed.

Dave!

[Gavster]

They made a few of the women in the group uncomfortable.

Completely understandable.

Dave!

Do you know what they were scared of happening that might have caused that discomfort? Or are these women scared of people of people with non-binary genders outside of bathrooms too?

[Mito Man]

As a man I find gender neutral toilets to suck. They’re in most places in Sweden. As soon as it gets busy you’re fucked as a guy
Women take aaaages so you will inevitably have to queue. For cubicles. Why doesn’t it lead to another room with urinals anywhere?
Come out the cubicle. Can I wash my hands? Nah, the sinks are all occupied by women doing fucking make up. So now I have to queue for the one sink which is actually being used as a sink.

Fuck the women. It’s the men who are getting the short end of the stick here!

[dinny_g]

How often do you walk around public changing rooms with your cock out?

Most times. I don't know another way I can remove boxer shorts and put on swimming trunks. And showering is also better done with no clothes on

[Gavster]

How often do you walk around public changing rooms with your cock out?

Most times. I don't know another way I can remove boxer shorts and put on swimming trunks. And showering is also better done with no clothes on

Same. Local swimming pool/gym here is a large male communal changing area for cock-out changing with a small row of cubicles along one side. You do need to walk though the cock-out section to access the cubicles.

On the other hand, the Olympic pool at Stratford is 100% cubicles which does make a lot more sense.

[V8Granite]

They made a few of the women in the group uncomfortable.

Completely understandable.

Dave!

Do you know what they were scared of happening that might have caused that discomfort? Or are these women scared of people of people with non-binary genders outside of bathrooms too?

2 women (1 short and late 40s and an early 30s normal height) mentioned it when they came back and waited to see them leave before going in.

The person was about 5 foot 6, full beard, Beany hat, crop top, cardigan, skirt and at a guess around 16 stone. If me and him dated, I’d be known as the pretty one.

If it was more convincing, I don’t think they would have said anything but I don’t know as it didn’t happen with anyone else.

Dave!

[dinny_g]

Just to be clear, I’m not wandering about swinging windmills…

I’m just not so prudish that I’m trying to wrap a towel around myself, wrestling underwear off and pulling up trunks etc

However, at the beach, I’m 100% doing that - using a towel that is, not windmilling about …