Bye Bye Sunak..

[Mito Man]

Easier said than done. A lot of Hamas are “ordinary” people with normal jobs, but ready to pick up an AK-47 and fight when told. According to the news today they have something around 10000 soldiers and up to 50,000 reservists. You can send in a full military invasion going door to door like the West did in Afghanistan but they’ll never be able to clear them all out, and it will cause heavy losses. I don’t think Israel have the military numbers to make this work either.

Can’t really negotiate with terrorists as you’ll just end up back in this situation.

Which basically leaves a scorched earth policy. Until international pressure causes them to stop.

And it repeats.

[John]

Israel want revenge and they want it badly, this isn't going to be the same as the previous "scuffles" between Israel and Palestine.

[unzippy]

The BBC is reporting 140 children and 105 women killed in Israeli strikes on Gaza.

Are you saying there's been no civilians killed by Israel? I'm not there, but it seems improbable.

No, I wasn't saying that; I was asking you to explain your comment that Israel carries out civilian murders (which involves intent to do so) and that the Israeli army are happy to murder civilians. Hamas is well known for using civilians as human shields to protect its operation centres. The Israeli army is well known for issuing warning to evacuate any building it is about to attack.

Israel is far from perfect - no country is, and no army is. But it doesn't enter Gaza to rape, kidnap or behead the local civilian population. Your equating the two sides is pretty offensive.

I dunno, a “total blockade” of the Gaza Strip, stopping the supply of food, fuel and other essential commodities is pretty offensive. Technically a war crime.

[duncs500]

Do you have a better suggestion yourself as to how to stop terror attacks on Israeli civilians?

It's not stopping it whatsoever though is it? Probably the opposite.

If 250 civilians are killed in a couple of days, why is that if Israel is so careful to tell people to evacuate? They just couldn't be bothered to save their own lives? Sorry, that level of collateral damage is just not acceptable in any modern conflict.

[ZedLeg]

Once a cunt, always a cunt

not sure there's any need for that. Surely you have the knowledge of the subject to educate rather than be posting crap posts like that. You're not Broccers FFS!

With all the respect I can muster for the forum’s favourite failson, he’s apparently an intelligent and well educated adult. I shouldn’t have to explain why Braverman’s dogwhistle politics are bad.

[Rich B]

Once a cunt, always a cunt

not sure there's any need for that. Surely you have the knowledge of the subject to educate rather than be posting crap posts like that. You're not Broccers FFS!

With all the respect I can muster for the forum’s favourite failson, he’s apparently an intelligent and well educated adult. I shouldn’t have to explain why Braverman’s dogwhistle politics are bad.

imagine living in world where someone making a comment that they wonder if their own countries Home Secretary has a point is a legitimate excuse to give up on talking to them and resort to cunt calling...

(Not that I disagree on Braverman being awful).

[DeskJockey]

Do you have a better suggestion yourself as to how to stop terror attacks on Israeli civilians?

It's not stopping it whatsoever though is it? Probably the opposite.

If 250 civilians are killed in a couple of days, why is that if Israel is so careful to tell people to evacuate? They just couldn't be bothered to save their own lives? Sorry, that level of collateral damage is just not acceptable in any modern conflict.

I think you're being too simplistic here by projecting your own rationality onto a completely different context. I'm not saying they'll just sit put, but the options and situation experienced on the ground is probably unimaginable for us.

The only sure thing is that there are no good outcomes for anyone in this.

[duncs500]

Do you have a better suggestion yourself as to how to stop terror attacks on Israeli civilians?

It's not stopping it whatsoever though is it? Probably the opposite.

If 250 civilians are killed in a couple of days, why is that if Israel is so careful to tell people to evacuate? They just couldn't be bothered to save their own lives? Sorry, that level of collateral damage is just not acceptable in any modern conflict.

I think you're being too simplistic here by projecting your own rationality onto a completely different context. I'm not saying they'll just sit put, but the options and situation experienced on the ground is probably unimaginable for us.

The only sure thing is that there are no good outcomes for anyone in this.

You're right and of course I have some notion that it's not that simple, but my view still remains that it isn't an acceptable level of collateral damage. Yes, the aggressors are going to be in amongst civilians, but knowing that doesn't mean you can shrug and bomb the target anyway. I'm sure if they had access to the same military equipment as Israel they would use different tactics as well.

The simple fact is this conflict is not going anywhere with violence. Not by rockets or incursions into Israel, not by airstrikes the other way, all that is doing is creating new generations ready to arm themselves and fight some more.

[V8Granite]

I’ve travelled all over the world, seen Taliban waving knives at me at work, Christian’s being told their priest turns into a pig at night and walks through walls to terrorise Muslims, Muslims go crazy for tiny things, Sikhs refusing to work with Muslims at during a festival, fuckwits screaming at Jews in an airport and my favourite. Being spat at as having a beard meant I must be a Muslim and saying I have no religion warranted abuse.

ALL religion is just a way of morally directing hate in their own eyes.

Faith is wonderful and should be applauded.

Mixing the two is killing millions and it will never ever end.

Dave!

[dinny_g]

Very well said Dave…

[ZedLeg]

not sure there's any need for that. Surely you have the knowledge of the subject to educate rather than be posting crap posts like that. You're not Broccers FFS!

With all the respect I can muster for the forum’s favourite failson, he’s apparently an intelligent and well educated adult. I shouldn’t have to explain why Braverman’s dogwhistle politics are bad.

imagine living in world where someone making a comment that they wonder if their own countries Home Secretary has a point is a legitimate excuse to give up on talking to them and resort to cunt calling...

(Not that I disagree on Braverman being awful).

I'm sorry but someone who says that they wonder if multiculturism has failed because they see some Palestinian flags is not a serious person. You can't discuss it because there's nothing there to discuss.

You might as well discuss whether parts of Luton are living under Sharia law.

[JonathanE]

It's not stopping it whatsoever though is it? Probably the opposite.

If 250 civilians are killed in a couple of days, why is that if Israel is so careful to tell people to evacuate? They just couldn't be bothered to save their own lives? Sorry, that level of collateral damage is just not acceptable in any modern conflict.

I think you're being too simplistic here by projecting your own rationality onto a completely different context. I'm not saying they'll just sit put, but the options and situation experienced on the ground is probably unimaginable for us.

The only sure thing is that there are no good outcomes for anyone in this.

You're right and of course I have some notion that it's not that simple, but my view still remains that it isn't an acceptable level of collateral damage. Yes, the aggressors are going to be in amongst civilians, but knowing that doesn't mean you can shrug and bomb the target anyway. I'm sure if they had access to the same military equipment as Israel they would use different tactics as well.

The simple fact is this conflict is not going anywhere with violence. Not by rockets or incursions into Israel, not by airstrikes the other way, all that is doing is creating new generations ready to arm themselves and fight some more.

Let's try to find some common ground:

- I agree that Israel should be accountable for the consequences of air strikes in Gaza and its other actions
- I agree that in some circumstances being indifferent as to the consequences of your actions isn't morally much better than murder
- I agree that some people in Israel regard Palestinian lives as less important than Jewish lives
- I agree that humanitarian aid should be allowed through any blockade

What I am upset with is your claim that Israel is happy to murder Palestinians. There were street celebrations after the murders on Saturday, but neither the murders nor the celebrations were by Israelis. If you still disagree, let's stick to discussing cars.

[dinny_g]

Let's not forget, the Palestinians brought this was to the Israelis bu launching massive surprise attacks on largely civilian targets with no warning.

There is a world of difference between how Hamas are fighting this war and how the Israel's are responding. And this does NOT come from reading the Daily Mail...

Whatever your views on the overall situation in the middle east, capturing terrified Jews with small children in their arms, on camera and taking them away to an unknown fate is a far more unacceptable way to fight a war than to issue a warning to the location of a Rocket Installation, allowing time for civilians to leave and then bombing it.

[duncs500]

I think you're being too simplistic here by projecting your own rationality onto a completely different context. I'm not saying they'll just sit put, but the options and situation experienced on the ground is probably unimaginable for us.

The only sure thing is that there are no good outcomes for anyone in this.

You're right and of course I have some notion that it's not that simple, but my view still remains that it isn't an acceptable level of collateral damage. Yes, the aggressors are going to be in amongst civilians, but knowing that doesn't mean you can shrug and bomb the target anyway. I'm sure if they had access to the same military equipment as Israel they would use different tactics as well.

The simple fact is this conflict is not going anywhere with violence. Not by rockets or incursions into Israel, not by airstrikes the other way, all that is doing is creating new generations ready to arm themselves and fight some more.

Let's try to find some common ground:

- I agree that Israel should be accountable for the consequences of air strikes in Gaza and its other actions
- I agree that in some circumstances being indifferent as to the consequences of your actions isn't morally much better than murder
- I agree that some people in Israel regard Palestinian lives as less important than Jewish lives
- I agree that humanitarian aid should be allowed through any blockade

What I am upset with is your claim that Israel is happy to murder Palestinians. There were street celebrations after the murders on Saturday, but neither the murders nor the celebrations were by Israelis. If you still disagree, let's stick to discussing cars.

I'm fine with all of that, when I use the term "happy to" it's just a phrase for the indifference that you describe in point 2.

I agree that the street celebrations are appalling.

@dinny_g the strategy is a function of the resources available. Yes it's horrific for you because of the media coverage, but can you say it's a lot worse than if you saw a young child maimed by an airstrike? Just so happens that one has better media coverage than the other and resonates more with you because of closer cultural similarities.

I'm certainly not in support of any party here, in fact it's far too complicated to say one side or the other is more "in the right". Perhaps that alienates me from both sides.

[duncs500]

Also mostly what @V8Granite said, religion can FRO.

[dinny_g]

@dinny_g the strategy is a function of the resources available. Yes it's horrific for you because of the media coverage, but can you say it's a lot worse than if you saw a young child maimed by an airstrike? Just so happens that one has better media coverage than the other and resonates more with you because of closer cultural similarities.

I think it resonates with me because I grew up living under the Spector of terrorism. Of not going into town at Christmas in case the UVF bombed a bookshop. My father missed the birth of my brother as he went for a walk and couldn’t get back into the maternity hospital as the Loyalists had planted a bomb.

There are no glorious freedom fighters, only murders who have shown they have no desire to negotiate, they have no desire for peace. They just want to see the destruction of Israel.

If Israel laid down their weapons tomorrow the outcome would be very different than I’d Palestine laid down their weapons.

Last I’m going to say on the matter. You can’t debate with dogma so I won’t waste anyone’s time trying

[Swervin_Mervin]

Also mostly what @V8Granite said, religion can FRO.

Let's be clear - wars don't happen because of religion. They happen because of people, and our tribal nature. If religion didn't exist there'd still be wars. Religion is just one of the many tribes to which people ascribe themselves.

And in this case, how much of what is happening is because of territory, rather than religion? And that's before you get to what the role of Iran and other co-agents is in this particular recent situation.

[duncs500]

Also mostly what @V8Granite said, religion can FRO.

Let's be clear - wars don't happen because of religion. They happen because of people, and our tribal nature. If religion didn't exist there'd still be wars. Religion is just one of the many tribes to which people ascribe themselves.

And in this case, how much of what is happening is because of territory, rather than religion? And that's before you get to what the role of Iran and other co-agents is in this particular recent situation.

Of course, probably poverty is a big factor in this case too, but religion just seems like the least logical reason, an easy justification, and a tool to enable it. I think without religion people would have to search a lot harder to come up with a reasonable justification.

[DeskJockey]

Also mostly what @V8Granite said, religion can FRO.

Let's be clear - wars don't happen because of religion. They happen because of people, and our tribal nature. If religion didn't exist there'd still be wars. Religion is just one of the many tribes to which people ascribe themselves.

And in this case, how much of what is happening is because of territory, rather than religion? And that's before you get to what the role of Iran and other co-agents is in this particular recent situation.

Of course, probably poverty is a big factor in this case too, but religion just seems like the least logical reason, an easy justification, and a tool to enable it. I think without religion people would have to search a lot harder to come up with a reasonable justification.

Sadly you're wrong on that front. Look no further than gangs, racism, football hooligans, school shooters, and a myriad other reasons people decide to kill others. There's no reasonable about it, it doesn't come into it at all. It is about a gradual dehumanisation of "the other" to the point that the attacker can justify their actions to themselves.

[Beany]

Well, that's depressing. Lets all have a giggle at a protester getting on stage, rambling bollocks and Starmer coming off it by adlibbing a reasonable slogan.

The overly long protest, cut short before a point could be made - by taking longer to get to it than it took security to get to him



And the follow up - "protest, or power"


Apparently they were protesting for proportional representation, but because posho protestor, they had a dream of getting the stage for a couple of minutes to rapturous applause to make a glorious soliloquy about how democracy should be citizen led, how politics needs and update, how the country is in crisis and presumably he was going to explain that only PR can sort it

Shame security bumrushed them before they could, er make a cohesive point. Could have brought PR back into the news cycle. But nah, had to be a self-important twat about it.

3/10 protest
6/10 response
10/10 fabulooouuuus aftermath.