Taking the knee

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ZedLeg
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by ZedLeg »

V8Granite wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:33 am What I find strange about the whole thing is that the idea of hiding the past away will make things better. It’s very naive to think we are so much more aware of our actions than Before and we couldn’t possibly be as cruel as in years past.

Dave!
Nobody thinks that, people are very aware that cruelty and prejudice still exist. That’s the point of what’s happening.

How does celebrating people who commit atrocities educate though?

Teach about what these people did in schools, universities and museums. The information is there, it just needs to be talked about.

You don’t need to see them every time you walk down the street.
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duncs500
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Re: Taking the knee

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Carlos wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:21 am As someone like yourself who isn't racist but welll known and Influential was asked by their minority colleague would you like to show solidarity by supporting their anti-racist gesture on this occasion what would you do Broccers ?
I think this is a good point when it comes to the footballers. If one of my mates wanted to do it, and felt it was worthwhile, I'd do it with him just to support him even if I wouldn't have done it otherwise. It's as much about supporting friends as making a political statement in this case.
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Carlos
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Re: Taking the knee

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Broccers wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:23 am
Carlos wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:21 am As someone like yourself who isn't racist but welll known and Influential was asked by their minority colleague would you like to show solidarity by supporting their anti-racist gesture on this occasion what would you do Broccers ?
I'd say I'm with them every day, previously to the latest fad and after so no I'm not kneeling.

What about you?
In the context we're discussing which was a high profile football match I'd show my support and kneel. If one person had been standing he may as well have knocked out a Nazi Salute whilst he's at it.
Last edited by Carlos on Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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dinny_g
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Re: Taking the knee

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duncs500 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:56 am It's as much about supporting friends as making a political statement in this case.
This...
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
Rich B wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:57 pm but Dinny was right…
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Broccers
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by Broccers »

duncs500 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:56 am It's as much about supporting friends as making a political statement in this case.
Its forcing people into doing something which I don't like at all. Re footballers, why should they have to do it if they don't want to - I'll tell you why because its all about image and the 100s of k they get per instagram post or keeping sponsors happy.

What next...
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Ascender
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Re: Taking the knee

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Footballers? I do genuinely believe it probably comes from a good place, but I'm not sure what it achieves? Raises awareness, but beyond that?
Cheers,

Mike.
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Broccers
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by Broccers »

Ascender wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:30 am Footballers? I do genuinely believe it probably comes from a good place, but I'm not sure what it achieves? Raises awareness, but beyond that?
Exactly - its not as if the tackling racism is new https://www.kickitout.org/about-us
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dinny_g
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by dinny_g »

Broccers wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:22 am
duncs500 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:56 am It's as much about supporting friends as making a political statement in this case.
Its forcing people into doing something which I don't like at all. Re footballers, why should they have to do it if they don't want to - I'll tell you why because its all about image and the 100s of k they get per instagram post or keeping sponsors happy.

What next...
I don't think anyone is forced into doing this Broccers...

Take a knee to make a small but powerful gesture to demonstrate your solidarity with your fellow man.

Don't take a knee if you feel you (*) live your life well already and see people for who they are, not in any other way.

It is your choice.

People will form a view of a person if they don't but so long as they're OK with that then fine. Remember, no-one outside their close group of friends and family knows they "live their life well already and see people for who they are, not in any other way" so its reasonable to assume that if they don't take a knee then they don't. People are not being asked to lie down on broken glass here - It's such a small thing really that 'not doing it on a matter of principle' won't be in anyone's thoughts when they see someone refusing to take a knee.

James McClane refuses to wear a poppy. He has his reasons, he stands by his decision. He takes a hell of a load of grief for it but that's the price he's prepared to pay for his principles. (**)

(*) - Royal You - not actually 'you' Broccers
(**) - I don't agree with his reasons at all
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
Rich B wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:57 pm but Dinny was right…
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duncs500
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Re: Taking the knee

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Broccers wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:22 am
duncs500 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:56 am It's as much about supporting friends as making a political statement in this case.
Its forcing people into doing something which I don't like at all. Re footballers, why should they have to do it if they don't want to - I'll tell you why because its all about image and the 100s of k they get per instagram post or keeping sponsors happy.

What next...
All I've read is that the teams talked about it and decided to do it. I take that at face value, I don't see anything about people being forced.
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ZedLeg
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by ZedLeg »

Yeah, broccers is seeing something that isn’t there.
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Broccers
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Re: Taking the knee

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Nah he isn't. Further reading from football supporters
https://millwall-forum.vitalfootball.co ... rby.42958/


Everyone is entitled to their opinion. 😎🍷
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duncs500
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Re: Taking the knee

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Broccers wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:12 am Nah he isn't. Further reading from football supporters
https://millwall-forum.vitalfootball.co ... rby.42958/


Everyone is entitled to their opinion. 😎🍷
Did you just quote a Millwall fans forum? :lol: I dare not even read it.
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Broccers
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by Broccers »

duncs500 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:24 am
Broccers wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:12 am Nah he isn't. Further reading from football supporters
https://millwall-forum.vitalfootball.co ... rby.42958/


Everyone is entitled to their opinion. 😎🍷
Did you just quote a Millwall fans forum? :lol: I dare not even read it.
I wouldn't it would prove my point and we can't have that 😂😀
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ZedLeg
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by ZedLeg »

Yeah, they all seem like reasonable people :lol:

Have you got any actual evidence that people are being forced to do it or just more ranting from your online happy place?
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Carlos
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by Carlos »

Broccers wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:26 am
duncs500 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:24 am
Broccers wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:12 am Nah he isn't. Further reading from football supporters
https://millwall-forum.vitalfootball.co ... rby.42958/


Everyone is entitled to their opinion. 😎🍷
Did you just quote a Millwall fans forum? :lol: I dare not even read it.
I wouldn't it would prove my point and we can't have that 😂😀
You've referenced a group with well publicised Nationalist and Far Right views ?
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Beany
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by Beany »

ZedLeg wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:36 am Yeah, they all seem like reasonable people :lol:

Have you got any actual evidence that people are being forced to do it or just more ranting from your online happy place?
If he's using Millwall supporters as an example, I'm going to guess that's a big fat no.
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Broccers
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by Broccers »

Next example you tough crowd https://tui.fansnetwork.co.uk/forum/259753/raab/#53

Quoted post for those scared of links

I was wondering last night, what if you are a player that does not want to engage in this "Take the Knee" event? I was thinking, if it was me, I would not want to engage in it, yet if any footballer out of a team did not wish to, they would not stand a chance would they (imagine if just one player last night did not take part - could you imagine the noise today across the media and various action groups)? They would be pilloried by the great and the not so good, the media et al. They would probably have to go into hiding. Would his own rights or views be respected? - I doubt it.

I am sorry, I cannot stand this latest contrived PR symbolism. "Taking the Knee" does not prove or disprove whether or not you are less of a racist than anyone else. You may not (like me) agree with this kind of symbolism but in my everyday life I like to think I see people as people and it is my actions or the actions of a person and the character of a person that is far greater than cheap contrived PR stunts. This may not be an exact quote as I have not bothered to check, but Martin Luther King said something along the lines that he dreams of a day where a person is judged by their character rather than by the colour of their skin.

Almost being forced to do something because if you don't, you will be seen in a negative manner is no better than the many decades and centuries ago when people felt forced to go to Church otherwise they must be bad people - never mind that all sorts of crimes and injustices were taking place in the name of religion.

We spoke about Rashford this week and there was one example of making a case, a point and acting upon it in a grown up, mature and sensible fashion - win people over by action, not symbolism. Whether it is Black Lives Matter, Climate change or whatever, a cause is not advanced by 2 or 3 weeks of bandwagon jumping high octance short periods of outbursts which often detracts from the core of the issue. Sustained pressure and persuasion of an argument and evolving a cause step by step usually results in long lasting change and benefits.
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ZedLeg
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Re: Taking the knee

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Again no one is being forced to do anything, if anyone feels peer pressured into doing something they don’t agree with that’s a different story.

If I played for millwall I’d be more concerned about taking a knee based on those forum posts tbh.
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Zonda_
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by Zonda_ »

I’d only do it if there was a convenient hand rail to help me back up again!
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Broccers
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Re: Taking the knee

Post by Broccers »

ZedLeg wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:57 am Yeah, broccers is seeing something that isn’t there.
So you're wrong again. A bit of a habit.
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