The EV Apocalypse

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Simon
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Simon »

I can see myself buying a brand new hybrid in 2034 and running it till it dies.

Even now, despite my shift of reps and accounts, I still have a couple of accounts up in Liverpool/Leeds/Manchester etc. Liverpool is 240 miles each way. Throw in a heater, lights, a cold winter day etc and I don't see many EV's can do that in one slog. Then I try to see each of those accounts every 3 months, so several times a year I also try to go up, have my meeting for a couple of hours, then head back. 480 miles round trip, and I like to do each leg without stopping so that I can get home and beat the rush hour traffic. I can't destination charge to full in the time of the meeting, I can't do each way without stopping to charge (like I can at the moment).

I know my use case isn't typical, but I don't see having a car for 'normal' journeys then another for the long runs as very practical, cost effective, or a good use of my money or the earth's resources.

People keep talking about charging becoming faster etc etc but there will have to be a fundamental shift away from Li-Ion and towards something else in that time for batteries to properly replace ICE for everyone.
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Zonda_
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Zonda_ »

Rich B wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:33 pm
McSwede wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:26 pm
simon_g wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:06 pm There effectively is a “standard” now - type 2 for slow charging, CCS for rapid charging at various speeds. Only Nissan are still making battery EVs that rapid charge with CHAdeMO, and the “fast AC” that Renault pushed is gone now.

It means a lot of chargers out there that support all 3, but there’s already networks that have dropped one or both of the others in favour of CCS.

All new rapid charging from now needs to take contactless bank card payment, some always have (like Instavolt), Polar have been doing new ones with contactless and are meant to have finished retrofitting all theirs by the summer.

I picked up my eGolf half empty in Bradford and drove it back to London on 3 rapid charges. Didn’t have to wait, didn’t have any issues with chargers, didn’t add much time to the journey really (over coffee/lunch/toilet stops I needed anyway). My plan with it is to just use it like I have our previous cars, and for the longer trips just planning for some charging along the way.
3 stops between Bradford and London??? The world's gone mad. I'd be cross if I had to stop for a wazz on a 3-4hr drive😂😂

A brave new world indeed
Exactly what I was thinking!
That’s what I meant in my original post when I said realistic range, I want a battery than can match my cars fuel tank range, the last time I refuelled from a full tank on a journey was when I went to Le Mans and that was in 2003 so that element of the range discussion doesn’t really affect me.
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NotoriousREV
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by NotoriousREV »

I’m genuinely wondering how often people are doing 4 hour drives in one go for this to be such a huge issue.
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Mito Man
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

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It’s fair enough to not want an EV if you’re doing 4 hour drives frequently. You’d probably want a nice diesel which has a 1000 mile range. Not sure I’d justify and base an argument on saying that EVs are ok as you have to stop every 2-3 hours for a comfort break and a meal - if so you need to go to visit a Doctor And you’re probably going to be spending more money on junk food than fuel :lol:

Also as a passenger I find an internal combustion engine much more pleasant - the gentle thrum of an engine makes it really pleasant to doze off and nap on longer journeys, something that doesn’t happen with me in an electric car.
Last edited by Mito Man on Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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simon_g
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by simon_g »

Traffic was awful at start and end so a full 9-5 day. Total charging time was an hour and a half (started only half full), and I was being overly cautious on the last one, had about 40% battery left at the end.

Starting full I reckon 2 stops of 30 mins, on a journey that’s 4-5 hours in normal traffic. And this is a car that by modern standards has a small battery and slow (40kW tops) rapid charging.

I’m not saying it’s ideal for someone doing that kind of trip regularly but I don’t and it’s quite acceptable for me if I can charge with no issues while I have a break and a meal or coffee.
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Zonda_
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Zonda_ »

NotoriousREV wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:12 pm I’m genuinely wondering how often people are doing 4 hour drives in one go for this to be such a huge issue.
That’s not the point, the point is having the capability to do it if the need arises without having a backup ICE car. It doesn’t matter if people only do it once a year, at the moment EVs can’t.
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Swervin_Mervin
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Swervin_Mervin »

Zonda_ wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:28 pm
NotoriousREV wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:12 pm I’m genuinely wondering how often people are doing 4 hour drives in one go for this to be such a huge issue.
That’s not the point, the point is having the capability to do it if the need arises without having a backup ICE car. It doesn’t matter if people only do it once a year, at the moment EVs can’t.
Well, they can. Simon just did it. In a car with a small battery that he admits he was being over cautious.
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NotoriousREV
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by NotoriousREV »

Zonda_ wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:28 pm
NotoriousREV wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:12 pm I’m genuinely wondering how often people are doing 4 hour drives in one go for this to be such a huge issue.
That’s not the point, the point is having the capability to do it if the need arises without having a backup ICE car. It doesn’t matter if people only do it once a year, at the moment EVs can’t.
My Skyline didn’t have the capability either, it only did 180 miles to a tank. I just don’t get why people are desperately trying to pull out the most extreme edge cases they can think of to somehow demonstrate that EVs are somehow shit. It just comes across as a bit regressive.

I’m not suggesting that EVs are perfect, or a great fit for everyone’s use, because they’re clearly not. But the argument of “I want to know I can drive for 4 hours without stopping even though I’ve never done it in my life” is a bit...weak?
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simon_g
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by simon_g »

I get that but it’ll be interesting to see how many people will pay for it. However big and dense batteries get there’ll always be an obvious way to make cars cheaper - offer a smaller battery version. For sportier stuff it’s also less weight to deal with.

Will the masses buying the 2030 Focus/Golf/3-series equivalents, which may have a possible range of 500+ miles at the top end, want to pay thousands more for that capability over a smaller battery one that drives the same, has the same toys, but has half the range?

Will be fascinating to see what the “right” amount of battery will be for most people, particularly once they’re on to their second or third EV.
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Zonda_
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Zonda_ »

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:36 pm
Zonda_ wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:28 pm
NotoriousREV wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:12 pm I’m genuinely wondering how often people are doing 4 hour drives in one go for this to be such a huge issue.
That’s not the point, the point is having the capability to do it if the need arises without having a backup ICE car. It doesn’t matter if people only do it once a year, at the moment EVs can’t.
Well, they can. Simon just did it. In a car with a small battery that he admits he was being over cautious.
But he had to stop for an hour to recharge.
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Jobbo
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Jobbo »

Rich B wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:38 pm
Jobbo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:13 pm Leeds to Saltburn is 75 miles according to Google Maps. So 150 mile round trip. That’s only difficult for the EVs intended as city cars; it wouldn’t be a problem for even the smallest capacity Teslas.

A friend of mine’s wife has a company Jag I-Pace. He borrows it time take his son to university in Nottingham, about 70 miles each way. He says he drives it like he stole it (someone else’s company car, why not!) and never tries to maximise the range; quite the contrary because he likes the instant acceleration. He tells me it uses little more than half the battery doing that return journey.

Buy an EV that’s right for your use and it’s already not a problem.
have you decided to get one now then?
I would, definitely, if it weren’t for the minimum £40k commitment I’d have to make at the time I’m buying a business. I can still do it in a year’s time assuming all goes well.

Comparing £700 a month (HP) on a Tesla plus £75 of ‘fuel’ cost with £400 a month on something else plus £375 a month on fuel, it’s down to which you prefer because it’s cost neutral. However, run it through a company and the 0% BIK allows you to offset a bit of income tax too, for the first year at least. My decision is to run something I own outright for the moment to minimise outgoings.
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Beany
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Beany »

Zonda_ wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:32 pm I’ve read about putting wireless churching in road surfaces but is that only for future vehicles?
Just as a side note, this will never happen for moving vehicles, and is massively inefficient compared to a plug for parked vehicles. Wireless charging isn't a thing we'll be doing for anything other than smartphones/tablets etc unless we crack fusion power and can afford to piss the wasted energy up the wall.

Which would be pretty cool, because F-Zero in real life would be awesume.

*makes plans to fire up an emulator at lunchtime*
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Mito Man
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Mito Man »

I think you can spec wireless charging on the 530e, or at least it was planned. It’s a good solution for something like a plug in hybrid which has a small battery as it should still charge up in a few hours and it gets around the “I’m too lazy to plug my car in everyday” couch potatoes.
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Beany
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Beany »

Mito Man wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:59 am I think you can spec wireless charging on the 530e, or at least it was planned. It’s a good solution for something like a plug in hybrid which has a small battery as it should still charge up in a few hours and it gets around the “I’m too lazy to plug my car in everyday” couch potatoes.
Laziness won't cover 50% efficiency. Bear in mind that EV charging will be bonkers amounts of power that we don't really currently have, not at the scale of 'everyone has an EV' certainly - although that won't be a genuine problem for a solid 30 years I don't reckon, so there's time to beef that up a bit.

However, unless there is a current-knowledge-of-physics breaking revolution in either inductive charging or power delivery, then pissing half of that up the wall using inductive charging for nothing more than conveniences sake will simply never fly when the user can just plug the thing in and get knocking on 100% efficiency from grid to car.
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Mito Man
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Mito Man »

It’s around 85% efficient according to the old BMW press release. FWIW a Nissan Leaf plugged in is 90% efficient under good weather conditions so it’s hardly the gross waste of electricity that you’re making out.
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Ascender
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Ascender »

Whenever this comes up on non-car forums, nobody is interested in the drawbacks to EVs over what we have today. From the limited amount I know about them, they're heavier; range isn't as good; the charging network just isn't there yet; different charging standards & payment methods seeing multiple accounts; no solution yet for HGVs and industrial machines.

There's obviously stats showing that the vast majority of people in the UK only make daily journeys in their car under a certain amount of miles which are within the current ranges of any EV. So that's fine, all car drivers should just suck it up and get onboard. But you can't be 100% sure how accurate your predicted range is going to be - add in the other challenges and the time to charge and you are replacing something which works well for the majority with an inferior experience.

Are there not other issues to consider too around how the battery industry is going to scale up with demand? How much polluting does an EV do over the course of its life compared to alternatives?

Or is it really this simple and we just all need to buy one?
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Beany
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Beany »

Mito Man wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:47 am It’s around 85% efficient according to the old BMW press release. FWIW a Nissan Leaf plugged in is 90% efficient under good weather conditions so it’s hardly the gross waste of electricity that you’re making out.
....That'll be 'up to' and it requires parking within a few inches of the perfect spot for the induction loop, so if you want to move stuff around in your garage - and it'll have to be a garage or an enclosed driveway - you're kinda fucked.

I'm struggling to see how that's better than just plugging in a cable.
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Mito Man
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Mito Man »

It sounds pretty simple, you pull up to your parking spot, the car guides you to park exactly over the pad and the job is done. Fucking convenient at this time of year, especially if you have a hard frost and then have to wrestle with your fucking plug to pull it out the charger.
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V8Granite
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by V8Granite »

Will this not impact many many things ?

Pacemakers, low voltage electronics, anyone with feelings may end up stabbing themselves in the head to “let out the noise” etc ?

I don’t want Kevin the EV driving vegan next door to dig up 5 tons of concrete to fit a charging pad and I lose tv signal, go outside to check and have a heart attack while my watch goes slower :evil:

Dave!
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Mito Man
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Re: The EV Apocalypse

Post by Mito Man »

Nah 5G will do all that :lol:
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