Panorama - Smart Motorways

[scotta]

Watched this - fairly harrowing.

Hadnt occured to me about their adivce if you breakdown on a smart motorway is to call 999 immediately.

Police forces are putting out their own video's telling people not to stop even if they have a puncture. Just shows you that these smart motorways are not fit for purpose.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... -motorways

[ShockDiamonds]

I've always thought they're a bloody stupid idea. I've never really liked the A34 (and the A14 too IIRC) because the 'no hard shoulder' approach renders you cannon fodder to all manner of time-pressed lorry drivers and shed draggers. Try to avoid roads like that whenever I can.

[Mito Man]

So are they going to leave them as is to turn lane 1 back into a permanent hard shoulder?

They’re continuing the smart motorway works on the M20, I guess because it’s cheaper than cancelling the contract! But will be interesting to see what happens.

[Coaster1]

I watched that.

Average 800m for refuge area when it was ‘signed off’. Now something like 2.5 miles average. Madness.

[GG.]

The roll out needs to stop immediately and the process of reversal begun. Finishing ongoing projects might seem cheaper than contract cancellation but I bet it's not if you factor in the cost of remediation to either remove the infrastructure or modify it to attempt to make it safe. Highways England management really need to be held accountable for this fiasco.

Fundamentally, you just really question if these people have any sense at all or have ever driven on a motorway - "oh yeh - sticking a red X above a lane and dialling down the speed limit on the other lanes will definitely mean no-one will run into the back of a stationary car in live traffic". Morons.

It's as if people have totally forgotten the prior advice as to getting out of your car and over (and well back from) the safety barrier in case you get hit on the hard shoulder - now its changed to "stay in your car in the live lane". It has uncomfortable echoes of the Grenfell tower advice.

[Mito Man]

The best advice from Police a few year ago when we broke down going to collect the Defender - “stay in the car but keep an eye on your rear view mirror”

Erm. No thanks.

[GG.]

The poor young boy that was killed had 40 seconds between becoming stationary and the car being obliterated by a lorry. Even if they change the advice to "get the hell out as quick as you can", you really are still at the mercy of the gods.

[drcarlos]

The roll out needs to stop immediately and the process of reversal begun. Finishing ongoing projects might seem cheaper than contract cancellation but I bet it's not if you factor in the cost of remediation to either remove the infrastructure or modify it to attempt to make it safe. Highways England management really need to be held accountable for this fiasco.

Fundamentally, you just really question if these people have any sense at all or have ever driven on a motorway - "oh yeh - sticking a red X above a lane and dialling down the speed limit on the other lanes will definitely mean no-one will run into the back of a stationary car in live traffic". Morons.

It's as if people have totally forgotten the prior advice as to getting out of your car and over (and well back from) the safety barrier in case you get hit on the hard shoulder - now its changed to "stay in your car in the live lane". It has uncomfortable echoes of the Grenfell tower advice.

I agree, travel on the M4 section being converted everyday and regularly use the M3 section.
After my mate having a customer break down (he fitted a new turbo that failed after 100 miles, but was absolved of any blame as the manaufacturer found a defect and paid out) on the M1 section and only survive because they had a large van with big crumple zone it's a worry and my tactic will be get out first and over the barriers before making any calls.

[scotta]

The roll out needs to stop immediately and the process of reversal begun. Finishing ongoing projects might seem cheaper than contract cancellation but I bet it's not if you factor in the cost of remediation to either remove the infrastructure or modify it to attempt to make it safe. Highways England management really need to be held accountable for this fiasco.

Fundamentally, you just really question if these people have any sense at all or have ever driven on a motorway - "oh yeh - sticking a red X above a lane and dialling down the speed limit on the other lanes will definitely mean no-one will run into the back of a stationary car in live traffic". Morons.

It's as if people have totally forgotten the prior advice as to getting out of your car and over (and well back from) the safety barrier in case you get hit on the hard shoulder - now its changed to "stay in your car in the live lane". It has uncomfortable echoes of the Grenfell tower advice.

I agree, travel on the M4 section being converted everyday and regularly use the M3 section.
After my mate having a customer break down (he fitted a new turbo that failed after 100 miles, but was absolved of any blame as the manaufacturer found a defect and paid out) on the M1 section and only survive because they had a large van with big crumple zone it's a worry and my tactic will be get out first and over the barriers before making any calls.

There was one section they showed where there was a flyover with a drop on the other side. I think thats where the little boy was killed. You're pretty much screwed there.

[drcarlos]

The roll out needs to stop immediately and the process of reversal begun. Finishing ongoing projects might seem cheaper than contract cancellation but I bet it's not if you factor in the cost of remediation to either remove the infrastructure or modify it to attempt to make it safe. Highways England management really need to be held accountable for this fiasco.

Fundamentally, you just really question if these people have any sense at all or have ever driven on a motorway - "oh yeh - sticking a red X above a lane and dialling down the speed limit on the other lanes will definitely mean no-one will run into the back of a stationary car in live traffic". Morons.

It's as if people have totally forgotten the prior advice as to getting out of your car and over (and well back from) the safety barrier in case you get hit on the hard shoulder - now its changed to "stay in your car in the live lane". It has uncomfortable echoes of the Grenfell tower advice.

I agree, travel on the M4 section being converted everyday and regularly use the M3 section.
After my mate having a customer break down (he fitted a new turbo that failed after 100 miles, but was absolved of any blame as the manaufacturer found a defect and paid out) on the M1 section and only survive because they had a large van with big crumple zone it's a worry and my tactic will be get out first and over the barriers before making any calls.

There was one section they showed where there was a flyover with a drop on the other side. I think thats where the little boy was killed. You're pretty much screwed there.

Shit, unless the car physically won't move any further it's a case of keeping going and then going after highways England for any increase repair bills I guess. They are going to get shafted in the court cases I guess. I wonder if the person that signed it all off could be held accountable for corporate manslaughter?

[mik]

Approx 1000 years ago - my Superstrada gearbox selected 1st whilst I was already in 5th on the motorway. I had started to move to the inside lanes as I felt the resistance of the selector bush seizing (assumed it was a misfire, but knew I needed to move out of lane3). When the whole thing locked solid a few seconds later I may as well have been in the passenger seat, as the front wheels locked and I continued on my trajectory, ending up approx 50% on the hard shoulder in a haze of tyre smoke and blasting car/truck horns.

3 mates in the car, so we foolishly - but also desperately - stepped out into a busy lane1 to bounce the car properly onto the hard shoulder. We were there for a good 30mins waiting on recovery, so I am certain we'd have been hit if I'd been alone, and the car left partly blocking the lane.

3 Cop cars came by during this 30mins and stopped to admire the 'box oil I'd dumped on the road, and the mahoosive 11's. None of them were aware in advance that I was there (clearly not in sight of any camera) and none waited with blues on to offer us any additional protection (prob since we'd got it onto the hard shoulder).

So.... the idea of no hard shoulder on a (not very) smart motorway always gave me the willies.

[Swervin_Mervin]

The poor young boy that was killed had 40 seconds between becoming stationary and the car being obliterated by a lorry. Even if they change the advice to "get the hell out as quick as you can", you really are still at the mercy of the gods.

And that's before you factor in getting said child out of their car seat. Fvcking ludicrous schemes and I hope they get a total shafting and stop the nonsense asap. Hard shoulders have always been dangerous enough as they were - removing them just eliminates any safety margin.

I'd have thought the biggest benefits to the smart system would always be the live speed management anyway, not the creation of occasional extra capacity via the hard shoulder.

[Mito Man]

The biggest benefit is that they set up cameras on every other gantry and earn a nice little wage out of it.
Otherwise no benefit to the public.

I’m yet to believe that reducing the speed actually increases volume as no cunt actually drives leaving a 2 second gap in reality. And the random times they display them makes me believe it’s for emissions purposes.

You know the most stupid shit is when they turn the speed down to 50 about 5 miles before a junction due to congestion or a breakdown or debris. And you’re still left searching for it. You go to any country in Europe and they just put “incident at km xxx” - so you know exactly where it is to the nearest 100 metres. We have mile markers plastered all over motorways here but they’re not used.

[scotta]

I agree, travel on the M4 section being converted everyday and regularly use the M3 section.
After my mate having a customer break down (he fitted a new turbo that failed after 100 miles, but was absolved of any blame as the manaufacturer found a defect and paid out) on the M1 section and only survive because they had a large van with big crumple zone it's a worry and my tactic will be get out first and over the barriers before making any calls.

There was one section they showed where there was a flyover with a drop on the other side. I think thats where the little boy was killed. You're pretty much screwed there.

Shit, unless the car physically won't move any further it's a case of keeping going and then going after highways England for any increase repair bills I guess. They are going to get shafted in the court cases I guess. I wonder if the person that signed it all off could be held accountable for corporate manslaughter?

Skip to 17:17 in the programme - Fiesta driving along the inside lane with only 3 wheels rather than stopping in the live lane. That is downright dangerous - But its that or get mowed down with a truck.

[scotta]

The biggest benefit is that they set up cameras on every other gantry and earn a nice little wage out of it.
Otherwise no benefit to the public.

I’m yet to believe that reducing the speed actually increases volume as no cunt actually drives leaving a 2 second gap in reality. And the random times they display them makes me believe it’s for emissions purposes.

You know the most stupid shit is when they turn the speed down to 50 about 5 miles before a junction due to congestion or a breakdown or debris. And you’re still left searching for it. You go to any country in Europe and they just put “incident at km xxx” - so you know exactly where it is to the nearest 100 metres. We have mile markers plastered all over motorways here but they’re not used.

I had this on the way to silverstone last year. Two lanes closed for a couple of miles with Red X above on the gantry. Nothing on the road for miles then it cleared.

[DaveE]

I saw this too and did some digging for more data.

According to: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/indu ... ent-review

There were 38 deaths in the last 5 years on the 200 miles of smart motorways.

Let's call that 8 per year (average).

So that's 0.04 deaths, per mile, per year for smart motorways.

Page 18 of this: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... t-2018.pdf

Shows in 2018 there were 107 fatalities on the motorways.

Take off the 8 deaths and 200 miles for smart motorways and that leaves 99 deaths on the remaining 2000 miles of non-smart motorway.

Or 0.05 deaths, per mile, per year for non-smart motorways.

If I've done my sums right, that makes normal motorways a bit more deadly than smart motorways.

NB: according that PDF (above) motorway deaths in 2018 were +8% on 2017 - and what none of this shows is any trend in either normal or smart motorway deaths per year, per mile.

PS: I really hope I've not done some basic, fuckup with the maths

[JonMad]

Not see the programme but does your analysis need to filter on hard shoulder (or stopping in lane 1 on a smart motorway) related fatalities?

edit: but then you probably need stats on how many people stopped in hard shoulders or lane 1.

[GG.]

Would be interesting to see the breakdown of those 38 deaths as I think that's where the manipulation of the figures is hiding but I can't readily find a breakdown. 4 people were killed in 10 months on 16 miles of the M1 in 2018 so I wonder if the figures are heavily skewed toward the end of that 5 year period? You would think that if there was any increase in risk from smart motorways that that would be the case given they're being rolled out on a continuous basis.

The near misses on the M25 spiking from 70 odd to near 1500 is pretty damning in and of itself.

Deaths on UK motorways as a whole also increased by 8% last year.

[DaveE]

Yeah, the data's far from conclusive, but the simple headline of "38 people die on smart motorways in 5 years" doesn't tell the whole story.

I think they're a daft/bad idea too btw - I'm not justifying them in any way.

I've never really seen how they can be anything but more dangerous than having a hard shoulder.

It was shocking to learn how they're not actually "smart" at all.

[Alex_]

I'm all for reducing traffic and congestion but not having a permanent hard shoulder is a really stupid idea. Time to abolish these "smart" motorways.