Bristol bans diesels

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Rich B
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Rich B »

I agree, it would still be nice to know the true comparison now though.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Swervin_Mervin »

Agree also with Rev.

And Mito, you said significantly less emissions over the lifespan yet the article you linked, and subsequently quoted, clearly states EV at 80% of lifecycle emissions of an ICE. Not what I would call significantly lower but I guess the degree of significance can be argued about.

End of life for a lot of batteries will be battery storage solutions. It was becoming a quickly growing commercial market a couple of years ago and the company i used to work for was dealing with a lot of operators back then trying to secure sites for such ventures. That's still not strictly end of life for the battery but does make it clear they'd be used for some time after ev use.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Mito Man »

integrale_evo wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:02 am Especially as there have been a lot of reports of other, non-tesla ev being at 50% battery life after 3-4 years leaving the owners stuck with an almost unuseable range.
Yep electric cars which have no thermal management do that such as Nissan Leafs and the cheaper french cars, which is a bit of a false economy.

FWIW the i3 showed about 5-6% degradation after 5 years. In line with the typical 1% per annum deg seen on cars with thermal management. Although that battery really took a hammering since I can’t imagine high speed discharging whilst simultaneously high speed charging could have done it any good - when doing 80 on the motorway the battery was putting out 50kw whilst the REX was inputting 25kw :lol:
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Mito Man »

[mention]Swervin_Mervin[/mention] It’s a US study so it would be lower than 80% for people in this country. You could always change energy supplier to a renewable based one if you really want to lower it.

As for end of life solutions I think Tesla are going to implement a closed loop recycling system as there’s only so many batteries you will want to reuse for storage after a certain point. I’m sure others will follow because if the materials used in lithium batteries are really so valuable you’re not gonna chuck it in a landfill are you?
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by V8Granite »

I have no idea if this is accurate but a particularly clever electrician made a point that LI batteries are a lot harder and energy intensive to recycle compared to lead acid as well.

I think we will need to see 10 year old models and what happens with them first, lots to figure out yet.

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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by ZedLeg »

NotoriousREV wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:14 am Battery powered EVs are just a stopgap, Hydrogen will be the longer term solution. The costs of renewable energy are falling rapidly, electrolysis is getting more efficient and fuel cells are getting cheaper. It just needs a little time for everything to fall into place. Hydrogen will become the energy storage medium that sits in between solar and wind power and the grid and answers the “what happens when it’s not sunny/windy enough?”
Yep, all of that.

People have been playing with fuel cells for years but without investment in infrastructure it’s non starter.
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Barry
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Barry »

Hydrogen production uses a lot of energy remember, and storage needs careful consideration especially in a small private vehicle. Lots of cost and carbon issues to solve before H becomes viable. EV makes sense currently but only if, as mentioned already, recycling is done properly.

There's lots of chatter about EV cars becoming part of the backup grid too, lots of cars parked up would be a great nationwide battery storage solution, the grid pulling back charge when demand is there etc.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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Barry wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:46 pm Hydrogen production uses a lot of energy remember, and storage needs careful consideration especially in a small private vehicle. Lots of cost and carbon issues to solve before H becomes viable. EV makes sense currently but only if, as mentioned already, recycling is done properly.

There's lots of chatter about EV cars becoming part of the backup grid too, lots of cars parked up would be a great nationwide battery storage solution, the grid pulling back charge when demand is there etc.
It does use a lot of energy and currently 90-95% of hydrogen comes as a byproduct of petro-chem so isn’t clean but it is currently commercially viable at today’s prices to produce H2 on a small scale and this will only improve as the technology both in renewable energy and hydrolysis improve, which is happening very quickly.

Storage is a solved issue. High pressure H2 I’m strong tanks (often made from carbon fibre). People worry about hydrogen because they think “Hindenburg” but imagine the even of a tank rupturing in a crash, would you rather be trapped in a vehicle with a liquid fuel source dripping onto the flames, or one where the fuel is so light it floats away and dissipates rapidly?

Several things need to line up: currently a hydrogen fuel cell car is about £60k, so around double the price of an ICE equivalent because fuel cells are low production items due to lack of demand. Price is one thing keeping demand low, the other is the availability of hydrogen. We need more hydrogen filling stations to get FCEVs and we need hydrogen piped to our homes to allow fuel cell powered and heated homes to work. Really it needs a shove from government to get it all going in the form of legislation but it’s all doable today.
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Barry
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Barry »

Indeed, it's being developed and costs improving, which is a good thing. Same issues as with EV currently really, lacking infrastructure and investment from central Gov. Can't think why..
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Orange Cola »

Jobbo wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:41 am Fascinating- even EU6 cars appear to be included in the ban.
Hope I can pick up a cheaper diesel commuter shortly then!
I was surprised by this too, even London’s system is structured around emissions standards. Feels a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to me :?
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Orange Cola »

duncs500 wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:03 am
Mito Man wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:36 am
Jobbo wrote: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:41 am Fascinating- even EU6 cars appear to be included in the ban.
Hope I can pick up a cheaper diesel commuter shortly then!
That was my first thought too but I think other cities will follow so not sure how useful it will be.

I reckon the ICE is going to banned way sooner than we all currently think.
You can definitely see the end, but I suspect it will be softer than a flat ban in that manufacturers will stop making them, then petrol stations will reduce the number of pumps (like 4-star) as they sell less. Eventually you will probably have to buy petrol from a specific niche outlet, and maybe only be able to use petrol cars on tracks.
I think that’s a pretty good prediction. I’m going to be prioritising future houses I can get both cars and a decent fuel tank into the back garden, my hobbies aren’t likely to change so I think I’ll always have some form of ICE vehicle but it’s a shame fuel prices will only go up with the demise of ICE vehicles.
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Mito Man
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Mito Man »

Storing petrol is a PITA, we had to apply to get over 30 litres of petrol years ago. To get petrol or diesel supplied at home with an oil tanker the minimum delivery is 500 litres now with local suppliers and you have to have to have a special twin walled tank - a few years back we would just have them fill up the oil barrels with it but that’s illegal now.

I wasn’t aware but there’s some limit as to how much fuel you can transport when I was alerted by a Sainsbury’s petrol station attendant screaming at me as I was filling my third Jerry can so now I just go to Tesco at midnight as it’s self service and there’s no staff :lol:
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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Mito Man wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:47 pm @Swervin_Mervin It’s a US study so it would be lower than 80% for people in this country. You could always change energy supplier to a renewable based one if you really want to lower it.

As for end of life solutions I think Tesla are going to implement a closed loop recycling system as there’s only so many batteries you will want to reuse for storage after a certain point. I’m sure others will follow because if the materials used in lithium batteries are really so valuable you’re not gonna chuck it in a landfill are you?
There is a recycling plant in Germany that can extract 99% of the lithium, cobalt etc. from batteries and it is reusable
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by drcarlos »

Barry wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:54 pm Indeed, it's being developed and costs improving, which is a good thing. Same issues as with EV currently really, lacking infrastructure and investment from central Gov. Can't think why..
Maybe because they have already studided it and found like Rev said to be the real deal and now a stop gap like battery EV's?

Another point missed out of the EV production study is the cost of extraction and refinement of the Neodymium needed for the lightweight a hyper efficient magnets need for EV's, from what I've read the extraction and refinement happen in China (80% comes from there) with the extraction being damaging and the refinement extremely toxic. This needs major work if EV's are to become a major player in the market place.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/18/neodymi ... -cars.html

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -pollution
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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drcarlos wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:10 pm
Barry wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:54 pm Indeed, it's being developed and costs improving, which is a good thing. Same issues as with EV currently really, lacking infrastructure and investment from central Gov. Can't think why..
Maybe because they have already studided it and found like Rev said to be the real deal and now a stop gap like battery EV's?

I think you're giving them a little too much credit there tbh. Even if hydrogen is the next big thing they'll still rely on private investment to take the plunge first.

And folk are talking like FCEV will replace BEV when in effect they'll just become the same thing, fuel cell cars will still need a battery to act as the storage buffer, only a smaller one needed. Same rare materials needed though.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by NotoriousREV »

Barry wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:22 pm
drcarlos wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:10 pm
Barry wrote: Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:54 pm Indeed, it's being developed and costs improving, which is a good thing. Same issues as with EV currently really, lacking infrastructure and investment from central Gov. Can't think why..
Maybe because they have already studided it and found like Rev said to be the real deal and now a stop gap like battery EV's?

I think you're giving them a little too much credit there tbh. Even if hydrogen is the next big thing they'll still rely on private investment to take the plunge first.

And folk are talking like FCEV will replace BEV when in effect they'll just become the same thing, fuel cell cars will still need a battery to act as the storage buffer, only a smaller one needed. Same rare materials needed though.
FCEVs don’t use batteries, they generate power on demand by burning hydrogen.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Mito Man »

They still have a tiny battery to act as a buffer don’t they?

What happened to the original hydrogen vehicles which used an adapted petrol engine to burn hydrogen? IIRC they also only had water as a byproduct. And it would get rid of the lithium and rare earth problem.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by IanF »

Cheers,

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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Mito Man »

Fuel cell cars are currently going through the same phase EVs were in 5 years ago where they all tried to make them have bold designs to stand out but they all look shit.
They don’t look very appealing right now though, too expensive, take almost as long as an EV to fill up but very limited choice of where to fill up, no convenience of home charging, costs about the same as petrol, poor performance but slightly better range.
Long way to go to catch up.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by drcarlos »

NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:44 pm
Barry wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:22 pm
drcarlos wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:10 pm

Maybe because they have already studided it and found like Rev said to be the real deal and now a stop gap like battery EV's?

I think you're giving them a little too much credit there tbh. Even if hydrogen is the next big thing they'll still rely on private investment to take the plunge first.

And folk are talking like FCEV will replace BEV when in effect they'll just become the same thing, fuel cell cars will still need a battery to act as the storage buffer, only a smaller one needed. Same rare materials needed though.
FCEVs don’t use batteries, they generate power on demand by burning hydrogen.
Not up on the tech but for burst power they probably have some beefy capacitors that will buffer any delay in production. In fact as BEVs are effectively scaled up rc tech they probably also have some beefy buffer capacitors too like their smaller cousins too as generally over stressing lithium batteries is not a good thing.
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