Bristol bans diesels

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Orange Cola
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Orange Cola »

drcarlos wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:24 pm
NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:44 pm
Barry wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:22 pm

I think you're giving them a little too much credit there tbh. Even if hydrogen is the next big thing they'll still rely on private investment to take the plunge first.

And folk are talking like FCEV will replace BEV when in effect they'll just become the same thing, fuel cell cars will still need a battery to act as the storage buffer, only a smaller one needed. Same rare materials needed though.
FCEVs don’t use batteries, they generate power on demand by burning hydrogen.
Not up on the tech but for burst power they probably have some beefy capacitors that will buffer any delay in production. In fact as BEVs are effectively scaled up rc tech they probably also have some beefy buffer capacitors too like their smaller cousins too as generally over stressing lithium batteries is not a good thing.
There are no capacitors in RC cars, just the battery rate.

Mito is correct, the larger hydrogen cars will need a PHEV sized battery to even out the peak demands but unlike a PHEV you won’t need to plug the car in to charge the battery.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Barry »

I'm not that invested in either technology tbh, enough to start digging too deep into the technicalities at any rate. Both systems have their benefits, Hydrogen needs the production side scaling up to make it viable at the moment, so EV has the head start and will doubtless forge ahead for another ten years before Hydrogen becomes realistic. There is room for both systems but I fear we'll end up with another VHS/Betamax situation.

At the rate charging is improving it'll be a close call between the time taken to refill a FC tank compared to just zapping some charge into a battery, by the time the Hydrogen supply becomes viable?
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by dinny_g »

I can’t say which way the technology will go (although I do believe it’s Hydrogen based) but I’m convinced whatever solution has to be driven, collectively, by Government and can’t be left to the vagaries Of the free market.

Take that Re-processing place in Germany as an example. The cynic will say “don’t forget to factor in the carbon emissions to get the spent batteries there from all over the world” to which the obvious response is “Well, there needs to be locally based plants to reduce the recycling footprint”

But with “market uncertainty” to what will ultimately become the solution, who’s going to invest heavily enough to build a factory...cleanly... to recycle an unknown amount of batteries... one of these factories in every country, region etc. I don’t see it happening...

The solution has to happen, whatever solution, and not be dependent on an Investors business case and return on investment projections
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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I think it’ll be the transformation of oil companies into energy companies which will drive the widespread technology change.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by drcarlos »

Orange Cola wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:39 pm
drcarlos wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:24 pm
NotoriousREV wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:44 pm

FCEVs don’t use batteries, they generate power on demand by burning hydrogen.
Not up on the tech but for burst power they probably have some beefy capacitors that will buffer any delay in production. In fact as BEVs are effectively scaled up rc tech they probably also have some beefy buffer capacitors too like their smaller cousins too as generally over stressing lithium batteries is not a good thing.
There are no capacitors in RC cars, just the battery rate.

Mito is correct, the larger hydrogen cars will need a PHEV sized battery to even out the peak demands but unlike a PHEV you won’t need to plug the car in to charge the battery.
There are, got several with them here, you can clearly see them in the picture here on a fairly generic example of a brushless lipo speed controller https://wheelspinmodels.co.uk/i/266829/ ... 1gQAvD_BwE
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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Orange Cola wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:39 pm Mito is correct, the larger hydrogen cars will need a PHEV sized battery to even out the peak demands but unlike a PHEV you won’t need to plug the car in to charge the battery.
I’m not sure what you mean by “PHEV sized battery”. A Tesla Model 3 comes with a 53kwh battery pack as the smallest option. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is about 13kwh. Hyundai’s new NEXO FCEV SUV has a 1.5kwh battery time smooth out power delivery. That’s a pretty big difference.
Last edited by NotoriousREV on Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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Barry wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:42 pm At the rate charging is improving it'll be a close call between the time taken to refill a FC tank compared to just zapping some charge into a battery, by the time the Hydrogen supply becomes viable?
I doubt that. Filling a hydrogen car with 15kg of h2 takes about a minute longer than filling a normal car with petrol or diesel. That wouldn’t get many miles of battery power.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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Mito Man wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:47 pm What happened to the original hydrogen vehicles which used an adapted petrol engine to burn hydrogen? IIRC they also only had water as a byproduct. And it would get rid of the lithium and rare earth problem.
Fuel cells are far more efficient; they also burn hydrogen and only have water as a byproduct.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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Aye, internal combustion engines are incredibly inefficient.

If you’re going to try and develop a new technology there’s no point in incorporating something that’s only going to be a hinderance.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by ZedLeg »

Also on the subject of the value of battery materials.

There is supposition going around that one of the reasons for the recent military coup in Bolivia was to prevent the large reserves of Lithium being nationalised.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by mr_jon »

The amount of lithium in li-ion is tiny, though, and the world has huge reserves.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:29 am
Mito Man wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:47 pm What happened to the original hydrogen vehicles which used an adapted petrol engine to burn hydrogen? IIRC they also only had water as a byproduct. And it would get rid of the lithium and rare earth problem.
Fuel cells are far more efficient; they also burn hydrogen and only have water as a byproduct.
I’m now wondering if it could be a way to keep old desirable cars going for longer as it should be cheaper than doing an entire drivetrain swap and you won’t lose all the character of the car. Surprised no companies have jumped on the opportunity. Should be similar to an LPG conversion :?
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by ZedLeg »

The main issue I'd see with those types of conversions is that Hydrogen is incredibly volatile. Trying to safely convert an old engine to run on it would be a headache.

I could see small self contained cells in old cars at some point in the future.

I always assumed that was the tech that ran the cars in Gattacca
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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Mito Man wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:15 am
NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:29 am
Mito Man wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:47 pm What happened to the original hydrogen vehicles which used an adapted petrol engine to burn hydrogen? IIRC they also only had water as a byproduct. And it would get rid of the lithium and rare earth problem.
Fuel cells are far more efficient; they also burn hydrogen and only have water as a byproduct.
I’m now wondering if it could be a way to keep old desirable cars going for longer as it should be cheaper than doing an entire drivetrain swap and you won’t lose all the character of the car. Surprised no companies have jumped on the opportunity. Should be similar to an LPG conversion :?
LPG behaves a lot like petrol, it just prefers a slightly different air/fuel mix, has a higher octane but a lower calorific value. Hydrogen behaves very differently. Hydrogen burns much more easily and is very prone to detonation so it’s not so straightforward. Ironically, it works best in Wankel engines. Even has turbines don’t run well on h2, although it can be mixed with gas for energy production.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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ZedLeg wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:47 am Aye, internal combustion engines are incredibly inefficient.
They have been efficient at getting me interested instantaneously since I was a small boy, whereas FEVs have been around over 10 years and I haven't even sat in one yet. Might make an exception for the next model Cayman if rumours are to be believed...
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:29 am
Mito Man wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:47 pm What happened to the original hydrogen vehicles which used an adapted petrol engine to burn hydrogen? IIRC they also only had water as a byproduct. And it would get rid of the lithium and rare earth problem.
Fuel cells are far more efficient; they also burn hydrogen and only have water as a byproduct.
A good video on it

The air going into a fuel cell needs to be super clean as the clog very quickly



Bjorn raises some good points on the current hurdles hydrogen fuel cell cars have to overcome, based on their trial in Norway

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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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PaulJ wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:55 pm
ZedLeg wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:47 am Aye, internal combustion engines are incredibly inefficient.
They have been efficient at getting me interested instantaneously since I was a small boy, whereas FEVs have been around over 10 years and I haven't even sat in one yet. Might make an exception for the next model Cayman if rumours are to be believed...
Should whether or not it’s interesting to children be the main question when deciding what technology we build personal transport around? :lol:
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Orange Cola »

drcarlos wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:37 pm
Orange Cola wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:39 pm
drcarlos wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:24 pm

Not up on the tech but for burst power they probably have some beefy capacitors that will buffer any delay in production. In fact as BEVs are effectively scaled up rc tech they probably also have some beefy buffer capacitors too like their smaller cousins too as generally over stressing lithium batteries is not a good thing.
There are no capacitors in RC cars, just the battery rate.

Mito is correct, the larger hydrogen cars will need a PHEV sized battery to even out the peak demands but unlike a PHEV you won’t need to plug the car in to charge the battery.
There are, got several with them here, you can clearly see them in the picture here on a fairly generic example of a brushless lipo speed controller https://wheelspinmodels.co.uk/i/266829/ ... 1gQAvD_BwE
They balance power across the ESC so you don’t get speed controller shut downs caused by a lack of BEC (the ESC supplies the RX in a standard set up, which in turn powers the servo and servos can pull power spikes when under load. I run servos which are 20kgs at 7v with a BEC, standard RX will supply 5.5v and when you peak a servo it’ll rely on the capacitors to step in) those capacitors can’t handle 11+ volts at 130amps continuously with 160amp peak load, if you didn’t melt the legs off then you’d set them on fire with a 14s(!) set up.

Mitos point is those capacitors protect the LiPo battery, that isn’t the case, they’d need to be huge to contain that power.
Last edited by Orange Cola on Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

Post by Orange Cola »

NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:24 am
Orange Cola wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:39 pm Mito is correct, the larger hydrogen cars will need a PHEV sized battery to even out the peak demands but unlike a PHEV you won’t need to plug the car in to charge the battery.
I’m not sure what you mean by “PHEV sized battery”. A Tesla Model 3 comes with a 53kwh battery pack as the smallest option. The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is about 13kwh. Hyundai’s new NEXO FCEV SUV has a 1.5kwh battery time smooth out power delivery. That’s a pretty big difference.
PHEV size being the smaller battery ranges currently found in PHEV cars, not the even smaller ones found in hydrogen cars. As the performance demands for hydrogen grow then so will the supplementary battery size to something about the same as a PHEV battery anyway. People will inevitably want their 2.5 ton car to accelerate the same as when it had a massive ICE under the bonnet, only they’ll be able to do it in an environmentally friendly way :D

The nice thing about the hydrogen set up is they don’t weigh quite as much as a BEV equivalent and that’s going to be a key issue for the larger cars on the market where when trying to make a BEV equivalent the 3.5t weight limit starts to become a real issue.
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Re: Bristol bans diesels

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Orange Cola wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:14 pm
PHEV size being the smaller battery ranges currently found in PHEV cars, not the even smaller ones found in hydrogen cars. As the performance demands for hydrogen grow then so will the supplementary battery size to something about the same as a PHEV battery anyway. People will inevitably want their 2.5 ton car to accelerate the same as when it had a massive ICE under the bonnet, only they’ll be able to do it in an environmentally friendly way :D

The nice thing about the hydrogen set up is they don’t weigh quite as much as a BEV equivalent and that’s going to be a key issue for the larger cars on the market where when trying to make a BEV equivalent the 3.5t weight limit starts to become a real issue.
In Bjorns vid he mentions that some owners had drained the battery in daily use reducing the already low 160bhp to 120bhp the fuel cell rating

As it stands I would buy the similarly priced EQC over the NEXO, which is much faster and a lot cheaper to run

In time I am sure they will overcome the limitations of hydrogen fuel cells, although if technology was able to double battery density for the same cost BEVs would be transformed as well.
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