RWC Japan

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unzippy
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Re: RWC Japan

Post by unzippy »

KiwiDave wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:10 am Every time I heard the crowd sing 'Swing low...' I cringed. I've literally never heard anyone sing it who isn't a first grade fuckwit. So glad I left! :lol:
Are you confusing Rugby with Football? It was immense! On a par with the Irish crowds response to the Haka :D
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Re: RWC Japan

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unzippy wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:58 pm
KiwiDave wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:10 am Every time I heard the crowd sing 'Swing low...' I cringed. I've literally never heard anyone sing it who isn't a first grade fuckwit. So glad I left! :lol:
Are you confusing Rugby with Football? It was immense! On a par with the Irish crowds response to the Haka :D
I mean potentially - I haven't been to a big rugby match in the UK. It's more just the 'hive mind' chanting that fucks me off - I guarantee that 99.9% of them have zero idea why they're singing it- "it's just what you do" has always really rubbed me up. Certainly at football games, being pissed, singing whatever, hating the other side to the point almost everyone will have a fight about it - all the same, sheep mentality. No one ever really stops to ask why...

I can't remember having gone to a rugby match here when anyone's sung anything - the cheering has been enough for any atmosphere needed, and that way people get to support and have fun in whatever way they want as opposed to 'banding together' doing something that means literally nothing to them.

Find it difficult to put into words, but it's that 'blindly following a thing because it's what we've always done' or 'what everyone else around us is doing' that winds me up. See also people voting for Brexit although they can't explain why beyond just hating something because they've been programmed to hate it. It's not so much the actual act that winds me up, it's why the atypical bloke in the street Brit does it that I've always fucking hated.

That's why I'm glad Ieft and all the signing grinds my gears :lol: That way of thinking just doesn't sit well with me at all.

And don't get me started on the singing over the Haka thing... Super difficult to put into words again, but you've either had to have been born here (in NZ) and raised well (as in, not by some white racists in Christchurch) or if you're an import like me, you've had to be fortunate enough to have been submerged in Māori culture. Thankfully I work in very close proximity to Māori and Pacifica culture with my day job and even now I cannot claim to be well versed in it. However, when you've understood it a little, singing over the top of the Haka (or any of the Pacifica equivalents) or challenging it is just the most disrespectful, ignorant, crass thing. While the haka is a war dance, it's also a lot of other things, up to and including, a representation of the very core of who a nation actually is as a people. It's not too different to trying to drown out someone's national anthem or torching their flag in front of them, but on a much more spiritual and meaningful level as opposed to something literal.

Our entire staff gave the same Haka to welcome our latest CEO to the organisation - if his party had sung it down it would have been like him discrediting the country he was joining. They give the same Hakas at funerals, you wouldn't sing that down.

Challenging it back conceptually I get - if you think it's only about laying down a challenge and you wanna say 'I see ya boy, but you've got no idea what's coming' then I can see why countries want to stand up for themselves before a match. But if you understand it as something else, it's so fucking rude. It would be like Trump meeting a bunch of Native Americans and talking over the top of whatever traditional meeting ceremony was put on - just reinforces the stereotype of 'we don't give a fuck about your culture because we're more important and we don't afford you any respect, so fuck your welcome and fuck your culture.' While there'll always be some who genuinely feel like that, I'd like to think the world as a whole is trying to be better about respecting people's differences. Singing down a Haka or challenging it back is the exact opposite of that.

But... I get that people can't know that until they've been immersed in it all for a while. So I can't really blame people as such.
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Re: RWC Japan

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KiwiDave wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:18 am Find it difficult to put into words, but it's that 'blindly following a thing because it's what we've always done' or 'what everyone else around us is doing' that winds me up.
What, like the Haka? :P


I've been to quite a few Eng games, in England. There was never any hate and the atmosphere was nothing like a football match, it was quite magical, certainly a lot more tuneful - insert observation about Welsh male voice choirs etc :lol:

The only reason NZ do the Haka it is to intimidate the opposition. It's a war dance, a challenge. And it's fucking cool.
But if the opposition chose not to be intimidated and turn their backs, or yawn (I'd love to see someone moon them) I'm also fine with. The opposition should not feel obligated to stand there and "take it". NZ shouldn't have the monopoly on intimidation.
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Re: RWC Japan

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unzippy wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:13 amThe only reason NZ do the Haka it is to intimidate the opposition. It's a war dance, a challenge. And it's fucking cool.
But if the opposition chose not to be intimidated and turn their backs, or yawn (I'd love to see someone moon them) I'm also fine with. The opposition should not feel obligated to stand there and "take it". NZ shouldn't have the monopoly on intimidation.
And that right there completely misinterprets what it is. I understand it's what most people think it is, but it really, really isn't.
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Re: RWC Japan

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If you have to live there to understand it then perhaps it shouldn't be done in Rugby outside of New Zealand ??

If the responses to it are disrespectful then perhaps do it in the Changing Rooms, like the Wales match??
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
Rich B wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:57 pm but Dinny was right…
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unzippy
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Re: RWC Japan

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KiwiDave wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:45 am
unzippy wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:13 amThe only reason NZ do the Haka it is to intimidate the opposition. It's a war dance, a challenge. And it's fucking cool.
But if the opposition chose not to be intimidated and turn their backs, or yawn (I'd love to see someone moon them) I'm also fine with. The opposition should not feel obligated to stand there and "take it". NZ shouldn't have the monopoly on intimidation.
And that right there completely misinterprets what it is. I understand it's what most people think it is, but it really, really isn't.
So is it something that should be done instead of the national anthem?

What's so special about the one team that they get a national anthem and a war dance?
The Evo forum really is a shadow of its former self. I remember when the internet was for the elite and now they seem to let any spastic on

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Re: RWC Japan

Post by dinny_g »

Also, why is it only Rugby teams (and, erm Men's Field Hockey :shock: ) that perform a Haka before their games.

Genuine question to Dave ?

Edit - also, why is Kapa o Pango only brought out against certain teams ??
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
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Re: RWC Japan

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dinny_g wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:55 am Also, why is it only Rugby teams (and, erm Men's Field Hockey :shock: ) that perform a Haka before their games.
It's not only Rugby. I don't watch much sports but I know the Black Sox and White Sox (mens and womens softball, for some reason NZ is good at it) perform the haka regularly when they play. The TallBlacks (basketball) do pregame. Olympic/Commonwealth games teams often perform one if they do well as a thank you to their support.
The other thing to note is that the haka isn't just for sport or for a challenge. They're often performed in welcoming or honoring occasions. Some of the most emotionally charged ones are during funerals or tangi. Here are two that always get me:

School farewelling a beloved teacher.

Soldiers for fallen comrades.
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Re: RWC Japan

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So much for Wikipedia's accuracy... :lol:

I have Kiwi family and understand very well the significance of the Haka for various ceremonial events etc. However, my family will ALL tell you that the Haka, proceeding a Rugby match may have started out with a certain meaning but now it's 100% intimidation and having the very last say before kick-off.

They all would prefer it stopped...
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
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Re: RWC Japan

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These days New Zealand would do a Haka for the opening of a pack of crisps.
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Re: RWC Japan

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Do national games (between different NZ teams) include a double Haka, or is it done for International matches only?

I think it is cool, but having a different rule for 1 country is of course stoopid.
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Re: RWC Japan

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Rich B wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:19 pm These days New Zealand would do a Haka for the opening of a pack of crisps.
Sounds like everyone is getting a bit Hakad-off with this.
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Re: RWC Japan

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My favourite thing in this thread by some margin is the fact that the NZ basketball team are known as the TallBlacks! :D
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Re: RWC Japan

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The Haka is great, singing, and sports chanting are also fine. I don't see any reason to get bent out of shape about any of it as long as it's good natured.

Without knowing anything other than what has been posted in here, I still don't see that you can compare a funeral tradition with a sports match, even if it is the same process.* Especially when a team uses it for intimidation and advantage in a sports match, it's all gamesmanship from that point on, and if they can't handle that then they don't have to do it.

* I would suggest that not one Ireland fan would sing over it at a funeral.
Last edited by duncs500 on Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RWC Japan

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Gavin wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:01 pm My favourite thing in this thread by some margin is the fact that the NZ basketball team are known as the TallBlacks! :D
that is a beautiful fact, though my favourite part of the thread is where singing at a rugby game was slated and compared to voting for Brexit....
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Re: RWC Japan

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duncs500 wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:04 pm The Haka is great, singing, and sports chanting are also fine. I don't see any reason to get bent out of shape about any of it as long as it's good natured.

Without knowing anything other than what has been posted in here, I still don't see that you can compare a funeral tradition with a sports match, even if it is the same process. Especially when a team uses it for intimidation and advantage in a sports match, it's all gamesmanship from that point on, and if they can't handle that then they don't have to do it.
if it helps, I haven’t tackled anyone to the ground at a funeral. Tbh I don’t think I’ve even thrown or kicked a ball at a funeral.

Are funerals different in NZ?
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Re: RWC Japan

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Funerals can be pretty trying though.
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Re: RWC Japan

Post by Gavin »

I guess perception is the key here. The Haka may not be designed to be pure intimidation at the start of a rugby match but it is perceived to be so by most non NZ fans.

By the same token, Brexit supporters are generally perceived across the EU, the UK and the World as bloody stupid but of course that may not be the case at all.
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Re: RWC Japan

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Gavin wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:36 pm I guess perception is the key here. The Haka may not be designed to be pure intimidation at the start of a rugby match but it is perceived to be so by most non NZ fans.
In the rugby situation, If it is something other than intimidation, why is it directed at the opposition?

Maybe it if was directed at the NZ supporters it would be perceived as a gesture of thanks, mark of respect etc?
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Re: RWC Japan

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mik wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:33 pm Funerals can be pretty trying though.
<Insert Crowd Applauding gif>

😂
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
Rich B wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:57 pm but Dinny was right…
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