Bye Bye Boris!

[DeskJockey]

I've never quite understood the British obsession with owning a home, except as a mitigation of a broken rental sector.

do you rent?

I used to, but not now. Hence the "broken rental sector" comment.

[Rich B]

I've never quite understood the British obsession with owning a home, except as a mitigation of a broken rental sector.

do you rent?

I used to, but not now. Hence the "broken rental sector" comment.

what's specifically broken that would make you go back to renting?

[ZedLeg]

Rent in the private sector has gone crazy recently.

When I moved last year, I had to up my budget by about £200 as everything in the range of the place I was moving out of was a cold infested rat hole.

I agree with DJ. The aspirational push for home ownership has had more negative effects than positive.

[Rich B]

Rent in the private sector has gone crazy recently.

When I moved last year, I had to up my budget by about £200 as everything in the range of the place I was moving out of was a cold infested rat hole.

I agree with DJ. The aspirational push for home ownership has had more negative effects than positive.

whereas my mortgage has just gone down by a few hundred a month after remortgaging with an improved LTV. That's what the brits like about buying.

[DeskJockey]

do you rent?

I used to, but not now. Hence the "broken rental sector" comment.

what's specifically broken that would make you go back to renting?

Off the top of my head:
- landlord can kick you out with little or no warning
- they can increase the rent for no other reason than that they want to
- if they decide to sell, you can lose your home
- you'll have to make good any changes they don't like

And specifically from the two rental properties we lived in:
- little or no willingness to fix bigger issues (damp in one, poor insulation/single glazing/security in the other)
- wanting us to fully fund improvements that would benefit them/the property value
- having to seek approval for minor changes

For me the fundamental issue is that when you have individuals owning one or a few properties it is most often to make a profit and they're running as lean as possible. Therefore the willingness to improve things is very limited and you're dependent on them being good landlords (which I'm sure many are, but there is a very wide span in what that means).

From experience of renting in Denmark that was a very different situation. I rented my first flat from a big institutional provider with thousands of properties. There was no risk to my tenancy, I could still have been living there today if I wanted to, rent was controlled so that increases were reasonable and justified, there was an ongoing maintenance program of the buildings and grounds, etc.

The security of the enancy is the key point. It may be their property, but it is your home. As long as you're being a good tenant, then you should be able to stay there without risk.

[ZedLeg]

Rent in the private sector has gone crazy recently.

When I moved last year, I had to up my budget by about £200 as everything in the range of the place I was moving out of was a cold infested rat hole.

I agree with DJ. The aspirational push for home ownership has had more negative effects than positive.

whereas my mortgage has just gone down by a few hundred a month after remortgaging with an improved LTV. That's what the brits like about buying.

Great if you have already bought, not so good if you haven't though is it?

The I'm alright so why aren't you like me thinking is a big part of what's wrong with how we view social policy here.

[DeskJockey]

Rent in the private sector has gone crazy recently.

When I moved last year, I had to up my budget by about £200 as everything in the range of the place I was moving out of was a cold infested rat hole.

I agree with DJ. The aspirational push for home ownership has had more negative effects than positive.

whereas my mortgage has just gone down by a few hundred a month after remortgaging with an improved LTV. That's what the brits like about buying.

Great if you have already bought, not so good if you haven't though is it?

The I'm alright so why aren't you like me thinking is a big part of what's wrong with how we view social policy here.

Very much this.

[Rich B]

I used to, but not now. Hence the "broken rental sector" comment.

what's specifically broken that would make you go back to renting?

Off the top of my head:
- landlord can kick you out with little or no warning
- they can increase the rent for no other reason than that they want to
- if they decide to sell, you can lose your home
- you'll have to make good any changes they don't like

And specifically from the two rental properties we lived in:
- little or no willingness to fix bigger issues (damp in one, poor insulation/single glazing/security in the other)
- wanting us to fully fund improvements that would benefit them/the property value
- having to seek approval for minor changes

For me the fundamental issue is that when you have individuals owning one or a few properties it is most often to make a profit and they're running as lean as possible. Therefore the willingness to improve things is very limited and you're dependent on them being good landlords (which I'm sure many are, but there is a very wide span in what that means).

From experience of renting in Denmark that was a very different situation. I rented by first flat from a big institutional provider with thousands of properties. There was no risk to my tenancy, I could still have been living there today if I wanted to, rent was controlled so that increases were reasonable and justified, there was an ongoing maintenance program of the buildings and grounds, etc.

The security of they tenancy is the key point. It may be their property, but it is your home. As long as you're being a good tenant, then you should be able to stay there without risk.

what happens in Denmark when you move from your rent controlled place after a number of years to another place? Presumably the rent control goes out the window and you start again at the current rate?

[ZedLeg]

Using social housing here as an example, people don't tend to move a lot once they have a tenancy or if they do they basically house swap with people within the system.

My sister is a council tenant and she's happy to stay in the house she's in forever.

[dinny_g]

I'd much rather see the government put some proper investment into social housing development than this. A secured council tenancy is a much better option for long term living imo.

Good point - ideally ( ) revenue saved by not needing to rent for those who've bought would be pushed back into building more affordable homes but this will never happen.

My Mother in Law has gone from Council paying private rent to a secured long term place. She's set-up now for life whereas before, every 6 months she had the spectre of having to move if the landlord was selling etc.

The Rent the council were paying for the property was scandalous - at least 50% more than it was worth

[Rich B]

Rent in the private sector has gone crazy recently.

When I moved last year, I had to up my budget by about £200 as everything in the range of the place I was moving out of was a cold infested rat hole.

I agree with DJ. The aspirational push for home ownership has had more negative effects than positive.

whereas my mortgage has just gone down by a few hundred a month after remortgaging with an improved LTV. That's what the brits like about buying.

Great if you have already bought, not so good if you haven't though is it?

The I'm alright so why aren't you like me thinking is a big part of what's wrong with how we view social policy here.

Well, I saved for years and bought a house needing massive renovation at a much much shittier rate than I'm on now and worked on it every night after work for several years to get to the situation where I could sell it and afford to put a decent deposit down on my current house, so I don't feel particularly bad.

Thankfully buying a house enabled me to do that physical work on it and reap the benefits.

[ZedLeg]

I can never decide if you’re a contrarian or an actual bootstraps tory Rich

[Jobbo]

House prices are mad though. Rich, do you know what the previous owners of your house did for a living? Our house was owned by a teacher before us, and there's no way a teacher could have afforded to buy it when we got it in 2017. What's more mad is that a house has just come on the market down the road, slightly smaller plot, slightly smaller floor area but similar era so definitely comparable, for more than twice what we paid 5 years ago. It's not even been particularly done up other than some laminate flooring and painting.

Despite also earning more than I did 5 years ago, I'd baulk at paying that sort of money. It's alright for you and me - we've made good money on our properties, but that still doesn't make it any easier for us to move house. It's not alright for the teachers and young people trying to buy.

However, it is what it is so I have no plans to cash out of property and wait for a crash. When you play the game you do your best within the constraints, not argue the rules are wrong.

[Rich B]

House prices are mad though. Rich, do you know what the previous owners of your house did for a living? Our house was owned by a teacher before us, and there's no way a teacher could have afforded to buy it when we got it in 2017. What's more mad is that a house has just come on the market down the road, slightly smaller plot, slightly smaller floor area but similar era so definitely comparable, for more than twice what we paid 5 years ago. It's not even been particularly done up other than some laminate flooring and painting.

Despite also earning more than I did 5 years ago, I'd baulk at paying that sort of money. It's alright for you and me - we've made good money on our properties, but that still doesn't make it any easier for us to move house. It's not alright for the teachers and young people trying to buy.

However, it is what it is so I have no plans to cash out of property and wait for a crash. When you play the game you do your best within the constraints, not argue the rules are wrong.

i'm only answering the q about why Brits are obsessed with buying houses. I agree it is very hard for young people to buy houses these days.

[Mito Man]

Scandinavia is very different and not comparable at all to the situation here. In Sweden you can’t just buy another house and rent it out. If you want to rent out a property you have to build a new property which can then only ever be rented out.
Renters are supported by their own union who set the prices for rent by square metre. The landlord can’t set prices.
Rental income is taxed to the balls, a landlord isn’t making very much money at all so unlike here someone with a bit of spare cash is unlikely to buy a second home to let out.

Apples and oranges.

[dinny_g]

Apples and oranges.

It’s always Apples and Oranges comparing with other markets.

France have 25 and 30 year rental leases and in other places, you have 50 year Mortgages - Parents start and then child finishes etc.

[ZedLeg]

France have 25 and 30 year rental leases

This is the worst part of renting in the UK. I've moved house at least 20 times since I was 18, not all of that has been due to rent increases or landlords ending the tenancy but I'd say at least two thirds have been.

If I could sign a long term lease and stay where I am I'd be quite happy but that kind of change isn't going to happen without government intervention.

[Carlos]

1. Rental Income is taxed to the "balls" here as well.
2. Tenants can ask for a 2 year term certain and many landlords will oblige as its security for both parties. It is not easy or quick to evict a bad tenant and the rules on evicting a non fault tenant is going out to 6 months minimum.
3. A government dept the Valuation Office Agency set housing benefit rent limits that are bedroom rated and the market doesn't deviate much from that for a typical house/flat.

[Swervin_Mervin]

I've never quite understood the British obsession with owning a home, except as a mitigation of a broken rental sector.

If you can afford to buy a home and use that to (hopefully) build equity, great, but there needs to be a secure, safe, functioning alternative. Forcing councils to sell their housing stock and then having to subsidize renting the same properties back seems short-sighted and wasteful.

All of this. I've never understood the obsession with us, as a nation, wanting to own our homes either. It seems to be culturally ingrained and I'm the same - first thing we did after leaving uni was work to get on the ladder.

[DeskJockey]

1. Rental Income is taxed to the "balls" here as well.
2. Tenants can ask for a 2 year term certain and many landlords will oblige as its security for both parties. It is not easy or quick to evict a bad tenant and the rules on evicting a non fault tenant is going out to 6 months minimum.
3. A government dept the Valuation Office Agency set housing benefit rent limits that are bedroom rated and the market doesn't deviate much from that for a typical house/flat.

TBF if it is taxed to the "balls", then it can't be more than max 50% (depending on droop and/or tightness of underwear), and if you get a bowlegged, well-hung gent with short legs and a long torso (and perhaps a mohawk for added height) it could be significantly less!

Edit: assumes that the measure is from floor to lowest part of the body part in question. Does that mean that if the registered owner is a biological woman the tax is 0% or 100%?