Bye Bye Boris!

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Swervin_Mervin
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Swervin_Mervin »

ZedLeg wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:00 am
dinny_g wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 9:54 am
ZedLeg wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:17 am It would be nice if Labour took this as a lesson on dropping the left to appeal to centrists, probably not though :lol:
So where's the left vote going then ? Or is it that the Left always vote left but there just isn't the attraction in Labour to the floating voter ?
Not sure about down south but a lot of the scottish left moved to the Greens and SNP years ago, now a lot of people I know are leaving the SNP for the greens too.

Corbyn did good work bringing a lot of left wing voters back towards the labour party. I thought about voting for them.

Labour can't appeal to a socialist base and centre right floating voters, they need to pick a side.
Whilst I agree they need to pick a side, I don't think you're right that going left ( :? ) is what they need. The swings so far in these elections in England have been largely from Lab to Con. Why are working class voters switching to the Cons? That alone should be the focus of the party's attentions.

I think what we're seeing is the effects of a wholesale reformation of politics in the UK, England in particular. Many traditional Lab and Con voters switching allegiances. I'm sure a lot of that is down to complacency on the parts of the big two, for relying too much on their safe seats in the past and leaving those seats feeling taken advantage of. That was certainly the case a couple of years ago in the likes of many Liverpool wards for example - no campaigning because of the belief they only needed to focus on the swing areas. Cue traditional voters feeling abandoned.

This all pre-dates the Brexit vote, and had been rumbling for a while, but the referendum gave people their first opportunity to really show their displeasure, and it's snowballed from there. Corbyn ruined Labour as he made them unappealing to the traditional working class Labour voter as they moved hard left, and in particular because he didn't pick a side on Brexit. And that was entirely because the hard left socialists put him in power - they were Remain along with a lot of the middle-class liberals that it appealed to, whilst crucially the traditional voters were Leave. That drove voters to other parties (Brexit Party and Tories) and in these elections more of those votes are being converted to blue. I wonder whether they're also now losing some of the liberal vote back to the Lib Dems as they seem to be making some gains as well.

They need to figure out what they want to be. And I don't think Burnham would achieve that. He might, possibly, have a little more about him as a leader, but I don't think he's enough of a visionary and leader to get people behind him that the party needs. I think he'd spend too much time pointing his finger at the Tories and saying how nasty they are, which clearly isn't washing with voters.
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ZedLeg
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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There isn't a quick fix for the Labour party, they're stuck in no mans land just now.

They can't decide whether to try and appeal to the new younger left or try and go for the older Labour voters who have apparently moved towards the conservatives.

My view is that they would be better to play a long game and work on building a base with the young left. Which is what was working with Corbyn, it was unfortunate that the concerted campaign against him by his own party drove a lot of the older voters away at the same time.

As I said earlier they'll never be able to appeal to both but I think that putting effort into the future rather than trying to claw back people who've left them behind is the better way to go.
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Swervin_Mervin
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Swervin_Mervin »

Totally agree that they're stuck in no man's land.

I think the issue you'd have with your approach is that the idealogical youth would do what they've always done, which is get old and become more centrist/right wing. :lol:
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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I don't know, I think ten years from now that swing won't be as pronounced as it has been for previous generations. It's already getting increasingly hard for the young to do the things that push people right as they get older, ie buy houses, invest etc. Nothing's going to change in that without some big changes in how our economies work.
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Swervin_Mervin
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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If it hasn't happened for over 40yrs, then I'm not convinced it ever will. We are now, as a nation, largely centrist, with peoples' views only really differing on a few matters. We have 3 parties essentially trying to occupy the same spot.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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That's the kind of complacent thinking that lost Labour Hartlepool ;).

The mood has changed over the last 15 to 20 years. The cost of living keeps climbing while wages have stagnated, I'm not saying it's a sure thing but I think a lot of middle aged people are overlooking how aware young people are of how they've been fucked over for short term gain and how angry they are about it.
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dinny_g
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:54 am Totally agree that they're stuck in no man's land.

I think the issue you'd have with your approach is that the idealogical youth would do what they've always done, which is get old and become more centrist/right wing. :lol:
Hands up, that's what has happened to me.. . :)

I moved to the UK in 1997 and was seduced by New Labour and the whole cool Britannia thing. I didn't really understand the UK Political dynamic as a new arrival but they seemed to have the right balance of left, centre and right policies in the correct balance to rise the tide, rise all boats etc. (I had previously voted Fianna Fáil back home - Centrist party so never a Conservative leaning person)

Then in my mid to late 30's and 40's I got a mortgage and a family and my priorities changed. I wanted business to thrive (for my job security and my pension), I wanted more Law and Order (so my kid could be safe) so I gravitated to the right.

You can't argue against the ideals and objectives of the Labour party at the most basic of levels but I have issue with many of the methods employed to achieve them. That the socialist core of the labour movement favoured Corbyn and with his terrorist apologist leanings, well that was the last straw for me. It will be a long time before I could give them my vote now
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
Rich B wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:57 pm but Dinny was right…
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ZedLeg
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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dinny_g wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 12:24 pm That the socialist core of the labour movement favoured Corbyn and with his terrorist apologist leanings, well that was the last straw for me.
Voting for a government that arms genocidal regimes is fine though?

Like I get that some of the associations Corbyn has had over the years were hard for some to stomach but being associated with Yasser Arafat isn't in the same league as arming Saudi imo.
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dinny_g
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Hey I didn't say I'm now a card carrying Tory - just that I don't be voting labour.
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
Rich B wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:57 pm but Dinny was right…
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ZedLeg
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by ZedLeg »

TBF, that was a bit of dumb whataboutism.

I stayed out of the whole terrorist sympathiser debate. Having grown up Scottish, catholic and socialist (via anarchism and communism) I have some opinions that I'm probably better keeping to myself in most company :lol:
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dinny_g
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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:lol: - now that I can sympathise with.

My Dad does NOT live in a big house which he built with the proceeds of land sales, land his grand father was given in reward for providing fuel to be used to burn an English landowner out of his castle in 1912

No siree, not at all 😉😂
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
Rich B wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:57 pm but Dinny was right…
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Broccers
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Broccers »

Labour has lost control of Sheffield council too. What' a fabulous day.
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GG.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by GG. »

Several years too late to stop the tree massacre sadly. Shower of utter cunts.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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ZedLeg wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 2:16 pm
Having grown up Scottish
Have you now renounced?? :lol:
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Mito Man
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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GG. wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:46 pm Several years too late to stop the tree massacre sadly. Shower of utter cunts.
Bloody hell just read up about that, never heard about that before.
How about not having a sig at all?
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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There was 5 council seats up for grabs in the Stockton area, all taken by tories, labour still have minority control though
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Mito Man wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:10 pm
GG. wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:46 pm Several years too late to stop the tree massacre sadly. Shower of utter cunts.
Bloody hell just read up about that, never heard about that before.
We've not done anything wrong' - Sheffield tree campaigners caught up in 'tea gate' row hit back at claim they poisoned workers

https://www.thestar.co.uk/news/weve-not ... ers-438434
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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ZedLeg wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:45 am
The mood has changed over the last 15 to 20 years. The cost of living keeps climbing while wages have stagnated, I'm not saying it's a sure thing but I think a lot of middle aged people are overlooking how aware young people are of how they've been fucked over for short term gain and how angry they are about it.
Sometimes I question that, it's total old fart thinking of course, but businesses (as all good businesses do) have persuaded us that we need a lot of stuff that we probably didn't need or have 20 years ago. People are not prepared to live without it now, but I think it makes a significant difference. I don't think housing and utility bills as a proportion of salaries has changed as much as you might think.

Doesn't change the perception of the young people I suppose, I wouldn't know whether that was accurate or not.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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FWIW as generally a non-Labour voter, I think the party is going in the right direction, but that Starmer was the wrong leader. I just don't think he's got a personality that people will get behind, Lisa Nandy was my pick of the Labour leadership bunch and I stand by that. Equally if Andy Burnham threw his hat in the ring I think he would be a vote winner, I just think he's got that personality and image that would win votes.
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ZedLeg
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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duncs500 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:34 pm
ZedLeg wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:45 am
The mood has changed over the last 15 to 20 years. The cost of living keeps climbing while wages have stagnated, I'm not saying it's a sure thing but I think a lot of middle aged people are overlooking how aware young people are of how they've been fucked over for short term gain and how angry they are about it.
Sometimes I question that, it's total old fart thinking of course, but businesses (as all good businesses do) have persuaded us that we need a lot of stuff that we probably didn't need or have 20 years ago. People are not prepared to live without it now, but I think it makes a significant difference. I don't think housing and utility bills as a proportion of salaries has changed as much as you might think.

Doesn't change the perception of the young people I suppose, I wouldn't know whether that was accurate or not.
Wages have been driven down to the point that people earn less in real terms than they did 20 years ago. From some quick Googling the average graduate starting salary is worth about £3k less than it was in 1999. Meanwhile the cost of living has gone up.
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