Bye Bye Boris!

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Marv
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Marv »

I see the press have taken the bait from the Conservatives and made the climate debate about Gove turning up and asking to take part...rather than reporting on what was actually discussed.

Blatant stunt by the Conservatives and it worked 🙄
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NotoriousREV
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by NotoriousREV »

And it's not at all concerning that, after the courts "interfering" with prorogation and Boris threatening to reduce court powers, he's threatened Channel 4's broadcasting licence. Again, if you can see and understand what's happening here and you still want to vote for this actual fascist state, then we truly are fucked as a country.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by V8Granite »

Beany wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:04 am Yup, being able to make a decision about whether your kids will go to a top rated school or the local comprehensive is entirely comparable to the benefits system being set up to completely fuck you when you're at your most financially (and likely, psychologically) vulnerable.

To be clear, I was on UC for near a year due to lack of work in my area (yes, I left that area to find work in the end), and with one paperwork fuck up, they dropped a full third of my incoming for a month which led to me spiralling into debt that three and a half years later I've still not managed to fully crawl out of.

If you think the two are even remotely comparable, you're a blithering imbecile.

And yes, I'd be more than happy for someone who is relatively high earning having to put a bit more into the pot and perhaps cut back on some genuione luxuries so that people who are genuinely extremely vulnerable don't have to go through what I've gone through.

You are literally the sort of person who the guillotine memes are aimed at, you realise?
After growing up in a council house where my Mum queues up at the chemist for baby formula vouchers (I think they were called vouchers) went to the school second hand clothes drive for uniforms and where we didn’t have a car until a relative died and left my Dad money for a Chevette. Talking about poverty you haven’t removed yourself from with a 330 convertible to drive is a pretty poor argument.

I think what people truly see as poverty now is very different to 40 years ago. There are people who genuinely need a lot of help and I think there are a lot who don’t, i don’t see the poverty where I used to live that I once did. It’s simply very different now, there was even a discussion on the radio that you are counted as in poverty if a certain amount of your monthly expenditure is on a mortgage. Ridiculous.

Again this thread has returned to insults, this isn’t PistonHeads.

Dave!
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ZedLeg
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by ZedLeg »

Beany wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:33 am
GG. wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:30 am I think the hypocrisy is what irks me the most. I'm sure Zed would be the first to be shouting from the rooftops if there were swingeing cuts to benefits or about things like the bedroom tax where all of sudden people are put under significant financial strain overnight because of a change to the system that takes significant amounts of money out of people's pockets.
The important difference being that the sort of people who are impacted by cuts to benefits - which in case you hadn't noticed, which you obviously haven't, have already happened - typically have next to nothing to fall back on.

I'm fairly certain the average person with kids in private school will have contingencies such as savings, because they can afford to.

Those hit by benefit cuts or bedroom taxes living week to week? Not so much.
Outstanding, targeting benefits designed to help the poorest among us with punitive changes is exactly the same as paying VAT on a luxury service.

If you think my views on this are hypocritical you should see what I post on twitter :lol:.
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NotoriousREV
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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V8Granite wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:23 am
Beany wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:04 am Yup, being able to make a decision about whether your kids will go to a top rated school or the local comprehensive is entirely comparable to the benefits system being set up to completely fuck you when you're at your most financially (and likely, psychologically) vulnerable.

To be clear, I was on UC for near a year due to lack of work in my area (yes, I left that area to find work in the end), and with one paperwork fuck up, they dropped a full third of my incoming for a month which led to me spiralling into debt that three and a half years later I've still not managed to fully crawl out of.

If you think the two are even remotely comparable, you're a blithering imbecile.

And yes, I'd be more than happy for someone who is relatively high earning having to put a bit more into the pot and perhaps cut back on some genuione luxuries so that people who are genuinely extremely vulnerable don't have to go through what I've gone through.

You are literally the sort of person who the guillotine memes are aimed at, you realise?
After growing up in a council house where my Mum queues up at the chemist for baby formula vouchers (I think they were called vouchers) went to the school second hand clothes drive for uniforms and where we didn’t have a car until a relative died and left my Dad money for a Chevette. Talking about poverty you haven’t removed yourself from with a 330 convertible to drive is a pretty poor argument.

I think what people truly see as poverty now is very different to 40 years ago. There are people who genuinely need a lot of help and I think there are a lot who don’t, i don’t see the poverty where I used to live that I once did. It’s simply very different now, there was even a discussion on the radio that you are counted as in poverty if a certain amount of your monthly expenditure is on a mortgage. Ridiculous.

Again this thread has returned to insults, this isn’t PistonHeads.

Dave!
Do you want to see people living in poorhouses and eating gruel before you accept that they're in poverty? Poverty is a relative term. I used to believe the whole "a rising tide lifts all boats" thing. It kinda sorta does up to a point, but the widening gap between upper and lower incomes is a real concern, and seems to be a problem mainly confined to the US and UK.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by V8Granite »

NotoriousREV wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:30 am
V8Granite wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:23 am
Beany wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:04 am Yup, being able to make a decision about whether your kids will go to a top rated school or the local comprehensive is entirely comparable to the benefits system being set up to completely fuck you when you're at your most financially (and likely, psychologically) vulnerable.

To be clear, I was on UC for near a year due to lack of work in my area (yes, I left that area to find work in the end), and with one paperwork fuck up, they dropped a full third of my incoming for a month which led to me spiralling into debt that three and a half years later I've still not managed to fully crawl out of.

If you think the two are even remotely comparable, you're a blithering imbecile.

And yes, I'd be more than happy for someone who is relatively high earning having to put a bit more into the pot and perhaps cut back on some genuione luxuries so that people who are genuinely extremely vulnerable don't have to go through what I've gone through.

You are literally the sort of person who the guillotine memes are aimed at, you realise?
After growing up in a council house where my Mum queues up at the chemist for baby formula vouchers (I think they were called vouchers) went to the school second hand clothes drive for uniforms and where we didn’t have a car until a relative died and left my Dad money for a Chevette. Talking about poverty you haven’t removed yourself from with a 330 convertible to drive is a pretty poor argument.

I think what people truly see as poverty now is very different to 40 years ago. There are people who genuinely need a lot of help and I think there are a lot who don’t, i don’t see the poverty where I used to live that I once did. It’s simply very different now, there was even a discussion on the radio that you are counted as in poverty if a certain amount of your monthly expenditure is on a mortgage. Ridiculous.

Again this thread has returned to insults, this isn’t PistonHeads.

Dave!
Do you want to see people living in poorhouses and eating gruel before you accept that they're in poverty? Poverty is a relative term. I used to believe the whole "a rising tide lifts all boats" thing. It kinda sorta does up to a point, but the widening gap between upper and lower incomes is a real concern, and seems to be a problem mainly confined to the US and UK.
Definitely not but I certainly don’t like how people who are struggling are lumped in with those who truly need the help. It winds me up when poverty is banded about so liberally.

My Aunt and Uncle adopted 2 boys who had quite big learning difficulties, they did amazing work with them both, one seems to be on track to live by himself due to some amazing government schemes which help. They were up in arms a few years ago when the benefits system changed for them despite them being financially very capable of doing this off their own back. This is what I find so frustrating, so much more could be done for the most needy people if more people took responsibility for their own decisions. Our friends adopted 2 boys (not my aunt and uncle) who need a lot of assistance and haven’t asked for any help as they don’t need it. Yet if they wanted some they would get it, that’s not right.

Being the person who decides who genuinely needs the assistance and who doesn’t would be a ridiculously hard job. I’ve no idea how you can decide without doing a case by case basis and that would take a lifetime probably.

Mumble grumble.

Dave!
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NotoriousREV
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by NotoriousREV »

You're not wrong, Dave!
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Beany
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Beany »

V8Granite wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:38 am
Being the person who decides who genuinely needs the assistance and who doesn’t would be a ridiculously hard job. I’ve no idea how you can decide without doing a case by case basis and that would take a lifetime probably.

Mumble grumble.

Dave!
My opinion on this is that it's better to have some wastage from people who may not need the assistance and have everyone able to be supported, than to try to go the other way, and have a far, far greater risk of harming those who absolutely need the help - which is where we are, for the most part, at the moment.

I'd not wish UC on anyone, not even GG :lol:
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Sundayjumper »

This thread is just a series of rhetorical questions and cherry-picked highly specific scenarios that people seem to think prove a much wider and vastly more complex situation.

Nobody has any answers that stand up to scrutiny. The same as the political parties themselves.

nef is the only person that’s posted a remotely balanced view here and it’s been largely glossed over with “your party sucks” and “no, your party sucks” over and over.

All these things are why I usually keep out of political threads.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Beany »

V8Granite wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:23 am Talking about poverty you haven’t removed yourself from with a 330 convertible to drive is a pretty poor argument.
Don't you have a 500E locked up somewhere? ;)
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Carlos »

This is serious Dave, we are not talking about people struggling to bring up kids with disabilities.

These are real struggles, suited and booted Porsche drivers battling with the socialist dictators for the right to educate their child privately. They're even considering ditching the Waitrose delivery's and shopping (in person) at Aldi, hoping they can still get their Avocado fix and Wine in Glass bottles 😂

For the record I'm on edge as regards the Labour manifesto but your VAT on School Fees concern is ridiculous.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by NotoriousREV »

Sundayjumper wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:58 am This thread is just a series of rhetorical questions and cherry-picked highly specific scenarios that people seem to think prove a much wider and vastly more complex situation.

Nobody has any answers that stand up to scrutiny. The same as the political parties themselves.

nef is the only person that’s posted a remotely balanced view here and it’s been largely glossed over with “your party sucks” and “no, your party sucks” over and over.

All these things are why I usually keep out of political threads.
Wrong. All the parties suck.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Beany »

That, and there are far more interesting things in the manifestos than just that. It seems an odd hill to die via guillotine over. ;)

The nationalisation idea certainly has some merit, even though I'm a bit skeptical of it actually happening; Openreach being a public utility is an idea that has legs, and the oft mentioned 'national generic drug plant' type affair doesn't seem completely bonkers either.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Sundayjumper »

NotoriousREV wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:05 am Wrong. All the parties suck.
No. And I never said they don’t.
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Mito Man
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Mito Man »

Fuck knows why people turn this into rocket science. Look at where you stand, look at party manifestos, see which will make you better off or hurt you the least and vote accordingly. No point discussing it with other people who have different backgrounds, you just end up in a pointless fight as demonstrated in the previous however many pages here.
How about not having a sig at all?
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by DeskJockey »

Mito Man wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:58 am Fuck knows why people turn this into rocket science. Look at where you stand, look at party manifestos, see which will make you better off or hurt you the least and vote accordingly. No point discussing it with other people who have different backgrounds, you just end up in a pointless fight as demonstrated in the previous however many pages here.
That's exactly the problem, selfishness. You have to consider the greater good and think about long-term consequences. Not looking past the tip of your own nose is a large part of why we're in this mess in the first place.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Swervin_Mervin »

Beany wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:06 am , and the oft mentioned 'national generic drug plant' type affair doesn't seem completely bonkers either.
How is that not bonkers? Watch the price of patented drugs skyrocket to make up the balance sheet...
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Swervin_Mervin »

Mito Man wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:58 am Fuck knows why people turn this into rocket science. Look at where you stand, look at party manifestos, see which will make you better off or hurt you the least and vote accordingly. No point discussing it with other people who have different backgrounds, you just end up in a pointless fight as demonstrated in the previous however many pages here.
The result of this GE will not be decided on such basis. By and large most will be voting based on Brexit.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Mito Man »

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:03 pm
Mito Man wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:58 am Fuck knows why people turn this into rocket science. Look at where you stand, look at party manifestos, see which will make you better off or hurt you the least and vote accordingly. No point discussing it with other people who have different backgrounds, you just end up in a pointless fight as demonstrated in the previous however many pages here.
The result of this GE will not be decided on such basis. By and large most will be voting based on Brexit.
Hmm, polls don’t seem to agree with that unless suddenly most of the country wants Brexit to happen?
How about not having a sig at all?
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Swervin_Mervin »

Mito Man wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:06 pm
Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:03 pm
Mito Man wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:58 am Fuck knows why people turn this into rocket science. Look at where you stand, look at party manifestos, see which will make you better off or hurt you the least and vote accordingly. No point discussing it with other people who have different backgrounds, you just end up in a pointless fight as demonstrated in the previous however many pages here.
The result of this GE will not be decided on such basis. By and large most will be voting based on Brexit.
Hmm, polls don’t seem to agree with that unless suddenly most of the country wants Brexit to happen?
Lots of Labour heartlands anticipated to be lost, purely on the basis of Brexit. Interviews aired last night on Newsnight showing residents of former mining towns wincing as they said they were likely to vote Cons, and vice versa - wealthy types that would rather poke their eyes out than vote Labour or Lib Dem are planning to do so. Going to be very difficult to call I think.
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