Bye Bye Boris!

speedingfine
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by speedingfine »

Mito Man wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:07 pm The government spent £100 million on advertising for Brexit on the 31st. £100 million down the shitter.
They're also melting down the Brexit 50p coins 😁

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rnd=brexit
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duncs500
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Swervin_Mervin wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:17 pm
duncs500 wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:05 pm Genuine question, why does Corbyn keep saying he will only support an election "once no deal Brexit has been taken off the table"? Surely Boris has accepted the extension, so there will be no Brexit before the proposed election in any case.

Once elected, Corbyn won't have to put no deal Brexit on the table? Unless he's not at all confident of being elected? I'm sure he keeps banging on about how the people want him... I'm confused.
Maybe* because if the Tories do win with an outright majority they could put No Deal back on the table. So a GE risks No Deal still.

*I don't credit them with that much intelligence tbh. They just don't know where to pitch themselves, torn between the desires of members that keep them at the head of the party, and their traditional voters
Well I guess if the Tories win with an outright majority the people voting for them must accept that as a risk worth taking. I don't want Brexit, let alone no deal Brexit, but at the end of the day, if the electorate vote Tory in numbers than I guess they've accepted that risk and given their blessing. Even when democracy gives an answer we don't like, we have to accept it.

Everybody knows what the ugly face of Brexit looks like now, it's no longer like the fantasy of referendum times. I have always thought that the referendum was void because nobody knew what they were voting for, now they do, if they still vote for a far right Brexiteer Tory party, then I guess that's the mandate Brexit needs.

I don't like it, but I would have to accept it as democracy in action.
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Broccers
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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The trouble duncs is it could have been so different if we actually got behind the thing - even I recognise the way it's been handled was deliberate so we would give up.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Broccers wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:43 am The trouble duncs is it could have been so different if we actually got behind the thing - even I recognise the way it's been handled was deliberate so we would give up.
Let’s just ignore why people won’t “get behind the thing“ for a moment. Triggering Article 50 when May did, was disastrous for Brexit. Failing to build any cross-party consensus was disastrous. Failing to work with Remainers was disastrous. Brexiteers love to shout about being the majority, but when it’s roughly half the country vs roughly half the country, running around like it was a 90:10 split isn’t going to work. May’s government failing to gain the consent of the losing side was, and remains, disastrous.

But of course, when you reintroduce the reasons people won’t get behind it, you realise the whole thing is a farce.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Broccers wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:43 am The trouble duncs is it could have been so different if we actually got behind the thing - even I recognise the way it's been handled was deliberate so we would give up.
Nah, people didn't know what they were voting for in 2016, I don't respect that as democracy because it was built on false information.

Now people know the reality, if they still want it then yes, we might as well get behind it and get it over and done with as it's clearly the will of people when equipped with proper information.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:53 am Let’s just ignore why people won’t “get behind the thing“ for a moment. Triggering Article 50 when May did, was disastrous for Brexit. Failing to build any cross-party consensus was disastrous. Failing to work with Remainers was disastrous. Brexiteers love to shout about being the majority, but when it’s roughly half the country vs roughly half the country, running around like it was a 90:10 split isn’t going to work. May’s government failing to gain the consent of the losing side was, and remains, disastrous.
Very true...
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
Rich B wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:57 pm but Dinny was right…
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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duncs500 wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:55 am
Broccers wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:43 am The trouble duncs is it could have been so different if we actually got behind the thing - even I recognise the way it's been handled was deliberate so we would give up.
Nah, people didn't know what they were voting for in 2016, I don't respect that as democracy because it was built on false information.

Now people know the reality, if they still want it then yes, we might as well get behind it and get it over and done with as it's clearly the will of people when equipped with proper information.
Most people won’t back down based on new information because psychologically this means being inconsistent and we’re hard-wired to be as consistent as possible. That’s why logical arguments don’t work.

Experiments show that if you ask people to make a choice on something but they only make that choice in their head, never writing it down or sharing it with anyone, they remain open to changing that choice based on new information. If you ask them to write it down, even anonymously, they become unlikely to change their mind based on new information. If you ask them to share that choice with others, they become extremely unlikely to ever change their view. That’s why online arguments never work to change anyone’s minds, regardless of the subject.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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I'm sure that's accurate Rev, and unfortunate, but if the nation elects a government over essentially one issue it gives them a clear mandate on that issue regardless.

That's democracy.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:05 amThat’s why online arguments never work to change anyone’s minds, regardless of the subject.
and yet you still try!

As for people “knowing the reality” now to Enable them to vote on in a 2nd ref, do you honestly think the general public have any better understanding of the possible outcomes than before? I think we’ve established that parliament doesn’t even know that.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Dave you can't say that based on politics tho - you can mark a cross in a labour box once then never do it again as they change - thats the point in question here. Initially we could walk away without a deal, now we can't and who in their right minds would give us one on that basis. So as a leaver my view has changed, I'd rather put up with being dictated to than an abortion of a deal which is bad for the country as a whole.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Rich B wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:17 am
NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:05 amThat’s why online arguments never work to change anyone’s minds, regardless of the subject.
and yet you still try!

As for people “knowing the reality” now to Enable them to vote on in a 2nd ref, do you honestly think the general public have any better understanding of the possible outcomes than before? I think we’ve established that parliament doesn’t even know that.
I think most of the promises made by Leave have been shown to not be doable, people can actually see what the available deals entail, “Project Fear” has largely been shown to have been correct so far (yes it has) so the understanding of the consequences should be clearer. However, due to what I said earlier, most people won’t change their mind, or even admit that any of what I’ve just said is true.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Broccers wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:20 am Dave you can't say that based on politics tho
You can, because it’s a generalisation and the vast majority of voters don’t change their allegiance throughout their lives. It’s the swing voters and the Don’t Knows that win elections. And they’re about 10% of the population.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:29 am
Broccers wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:20 am Dave you can't say that based on politics tho
You can, because it’s a generalisation and the vast majority of voters don’t change their allegiance throughout their lives. It’s the swing voters and the Don’t Knows that win elections. And they’re about 10% of the population.
Ok you can say it, incorrectly as you can't compare the present with the past on these matters. I've said it before lots and lots of Labour full on life supporters will never vote for JC. I guess we can only see when he does agree to a Ge.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:25 am
Rich B wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:17 am
NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:05 amThat’s why online arguments never work to change anyone’s minds, regardless of the subject.
and yet you still try!

As for people “knowing the reality” now to Enable them to vote on in a 2nd ref, do you honestly think the general public have any better understanding of the possible outcomes than before? I think we’ve established that parliament doesn’t even know that.
I think most of the promises made by Leave have been shown to not be doable, people can actually see what the available deals entail, “Project Fear” has largely been shown to have been correct so far (yes it has) so the understanding of the consequences should be clearer. However, due to what I said earlier, most people won’t change their mind, or even admit that any of what I’ve just said is true.
You should take that crystal ball of yours out on the campaign trail!
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Rich B wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:35 am
NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:25 am
Rich B wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:17 am and yet you still try!

As for people “knowing the reality” now to Enable them to vote on in a 2nd ref, do you honestly think the general public have any better understanding of the possible outcomes than before? I think we’ve established that parliament doesn’t even know that.
I think most of the promises made by Leave have been shown to not be doable, people can actually see what the available deals entail, “Project Fear” has largely been shown to have been correct so far (yes it has) so the understanding of the consequences should be clearer. However, due to what I said earlier, most people won’t change their mind, or even admit that any of what I’ve just said is true.
You should take that crystal ball of yours out on the campaign trail!
What is it you think I’m predicting about the future here?
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:36 am
Rich B wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:35 am
NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:25 am

I think most of the promises made by Leave have been shown to not be doable, people can actually see what the available deals entail, “Project Fear” has largely been shown to have been correct so far (yes it has) so the understanding of the consequences should be clearer. However, due to what I said earlier, most people won’t change their mind, or even admit that any of what I’ve just said is true.
You should take that crystal ball of yours out on the campaign trail!
What is it you think I’m predicting about the future here?
The “reality” of either of the leave options is still pretty far from clear - the deal option isn’t even confirmed.

Another ref at this stage would just lead to more “they didn’t know what they were voting for” from the losing side.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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I get sick of this stupid and completely incorrect argument. Firstly, we know what the deal(s) we can get look like, in detail. We didn’t know that in 2016. Secondly, we know the *predicted* outcomes of No Deal vs Remain, and May’s WA (which is broadly similar to Johnson’s).

The predictions won’t be 100% accurate, of course, but they will be broadly correct, much like the weather forecast.

The reality can’t be any clearer without a time machine and the predictions aren’t put together by someone rolling a dice or guessing.

The reality is that we have a MUCH clearer vision of the options, whether you believe that or not.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:54 am much like the weather forecast. .
I knew you were a Daily Express reader :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Never get it right.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Broccers wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:57 am
NotoriousREV wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:54 am much like the weather forecast. .
I knew you were a Daily Express reader :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Never get it right.
But it still gets cold in winter, right? 😉
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Just so everyone is clear, it's official now.




Oh, and JC is up for an election. Lets see how many ways Labour can fuck this up and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
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