Bye Bye Boris!

[Jobbo]

'why is the EU making it so difficult for us to leave - why are they trying to trip us up?' Is it because deep down, they know we'll thrive out of the EU & other countries will see this & follow suit leading to the collapse if the EU?

To be fair to the EU, they've mode no secret of the fact they need the UK's experience of leaving to act as a deterrent to others.

Where has that been reported? As far as I can see, they've been organised and consistent in their negotiations, but the main driver for them is that any deal does not threaten the principles of the EU. So we can't have free trade without free movement of people, for example. That's not tripping us up.

[ZedLeg]

Broccers has been pretty salty this morning, stopped taking the meds fella?

[Beany]

I said I couldn’t see how it could change under Europe, I can see that having a chance if we leave. I would be absolutely amazed if we came back and said we will introduce a points based system or whatever would work best and the EU just saying, yep no problem we will work with you on that.

These have been my feelings well before any talk of leaving the EU, I wasn’t hoodwinked by campaigns or shiny buses.

If someone is a benefit, whether by a skill, financially or lots of other reasons then come on in.

Dave!

Ah, do you mean having the political will to, for example, implement a policy of kicking out anyone who hasn't got a job/has generally not contributed after three months while being part of Europe, as opposed to having the legal right to create such a policy, which we do have while being part of Europe (unless I'm misreading pretty much everything I'm reading on the UKs rights when it comes to border control...)

[Broccers]

Broccers has been pretty salty this morning, stopped taking the meds fella?

[evostick]

We had a civil war around 370 years ago - why do you want to have another?

Thin out the deadwood. Dave and Beany for a start.

Nah, it’ll be the unskilled cannon fodder going in the first wave.

Nah. I reckon the next civil war will be fought on twitter.

I don't have the stomach for that kind of fighting these days. You'll be on the winning side though I'm sure

[Beany]

The next civil war:

[V8Granite]

I said I couldn’t see how it could change under Europe, I can see that having a chance if we leave. I would be absolutely amazed if we came back and said we will introduce a points based system or whatever would work best and the EU just saying, yep no problem we will work with you on that.

These have been my feelings well before any talk of leaving the EU, I wasn’t hoodwinked by campaigns or shiny buses.

If someone is a benefit, whether by a skill, financially or lots of other reasons then come on in.

Dave!

Ah, do you mean having the political will to, for example, implement a policy of kicking out anyone who hasn't got a job/has generally not contributed after three months while being part of Europe, as opposed to having the legal right to create such a policy, which we do have while being part of Europe (unless I'm misreading pretty much everything I'm reading on the UKs rights when it comes to border control...)

Exactly that, how that could be arranged I really don’t know though. Whatever system is in place someone will lost out who may be a valued member. What I certainly wouldn’t want is anyone already settled to be turfed out, that’s not fair, if you came to the uk under the old system then that’s how you must be able to stay.

Dave!

[Beany]

I suppose the way to do it would be to arrange for a good, clean 'residency' system - simple and effective - to be put in place, then announce the policy a solid year before it's implemented.

It'd be politically unsavoury, but absolutely possible, in or out of the EU - which is the point I'm (possibly poorly?) making.

[Orange Cola]

I said I couldn’t see how it could change under Europe, I can see that having a chance if we leave. I would be absolutely amazed if we came back and said we will introduce a points based system or whatever would work best and the EU just saying, yep no problem we will work with you on that.

These have been my feelings well before any talk of leaving the EU, I wasn’t hoodwinked by campaigns or shiny buses.

If someone is a benefit, whether by a skill, financially or lots of other reasons then come on in.

Dave!

Ah, do you mean having the political will to, for example, implement a policy of kicking out anyone who hasn't got a job/has generally not contributed after three months while being part of Europe, as opposed to having the legal right to create such a policy, which we do have while being part of Europe (unless I'm misreading pretty much everything I'm reading on the UKs rights when it comes to border control...)

Exactly that, how that could be arranged I really don’t know though. Whatever system is in place someone will lost out who may be a valued member. What I certainly wouldn’t want is anyone already settled to be turfed out, that’s not fair, if you came to the uk under the old system then that’s how you must be able to stay.

Dave!

We rely heavily on bringing skilled people into the country to fill the gaps. If we put in a system which is aggressive, or we come across as aggressive to these people then we will not be able to recruit people in.

I’m picking on Rev as an example here, but what if a foreign person with essential skills decided they wanted to take a year out from work in the exact same way Rev has, are we just going to turf them out for living here and not paying into the system? What if they’re made redundant or become sick and cannot work, do we pack them back off home?

[Nefarious]

Surely if your reasons aren't racist you won't get called a racist.

I freely admit I was on the fence at the time of the vote, mostly because both campaigns were dog shit, but its pretty clear now that leaving is a bad thing.

I’ll give it a go but it didn’t work before

Please note, this is solely based on where I live and what I’ve seen on my travels.

I grew up in Peterborough, there was a big change in the town in the 70s and 80s, lots of growth which is why my parents moved here from Old Coulsdon. There was a good mix of Eastern European’s and lots from India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. I went to school with a big hodge pudge of people and on the whole had a really nice childhood. Race or colour was never a thing and it was only after moving to where we live now that I could see what a nice mix it was.

Since the late 90s the entire town has changed. Immigration increased a lot and you noticed a lot less intergration, far more racial issues (you can drive through a part of town and see where it changes from Polish to Latvian with the relevant little gangs) and we saw more fighting in town and more areas I didn’t feel comfortable. Me and a friend were jumped in town for “walking so big” and now at night it’s a place I’d choose to steer clear from. Previously it was part of the pub golf route and I’d been there lots of times.

I think anyone willing to work and add to society in some way should be allowed to live here. The amount of people coming over became un-controlled from what I experienced and the whole town is more segregated as a result. The nickname of Peterborough is Peterbosnia as it happened so fast. Bring your food, culture, language whatever, but don’t build an area like home and try and keep others out. On one occasion at 5am on a Sunday I was out buying raspberries (a cake disaster, birthday, desperate times etc ) and I was followed by 4 guys in a blacked out Audi A6 as I found a greengrocers opening up. They watched me with their windows down as I walked in, bought my raspberries and left. Maybe they’d seen too many episodes of the Sopranos.

Cromwell road has a large Indian community, they made a point of running businesses and helping the community out, they benefitted the town and I’ve never heard a problem. It was only teenagers being knobs which everyone has an issue with at times.

So, my racially harmonious town has now become segregated and un-friendly. I could never see a way of controlling the amounts of people settling here by staying within Europe and the only way I could see it happening, no matter how small was if we left Europe. So I voted leave and stand by that decision.

As background, I grew up in a council house, both parents are factory workers, bought their house on a right to buy scheme, my sister is a remain voting university degree worker for the government and I live in an ex council house in a small town just outside of Peterborough. My parents also voted remain.

My dog doesn’t like Sikhs though or people wearing motorbike helmets but he wasn’t allowed to.

Dave!

Edited for speeeeeeling mistakes.

Sorry Dave for the slow response - real life getting in the way of internet ranting!

I hear what you say, but I'd argue that what you're really describing is an economic problem rather than an ethnicity one. When people are hard up, they tend to cluster where their support networks are, and, unfortunately, when things are really shit, the kind of anti-social stuff you describe creeps out of the woodwork. In the examples you give, it just so happens that the effect is correlated with ethnicity (and its easier to identify, as the people concerned have clearly identifiable tribes) - but the same thing can be seen in other areas with poverty problems without the racial element.

Basically, IMO, it comes down to this - when there's not enough pie to go round, you have two choices: stop some people sharing the pie, or bake a bigger fucking pie. Experience shows that taking the first strategy ultimately leads to a smaller pie (fewer economically active, shrinking economy etc etc), so the same issues of scarcity and perceived unfairness come back further down the line (just with different groups of people identified as "the problem"). Hence I take the view of grow the whole pie for everyone, and ensure it's divvied up fairly.

[V8Granite]

This is an issue which would be very hard to decide on.

I needed a letter of intent from my company, a full Norwegian address, I pay full tax and declare everything each year. I am unable to claim the full benefits in Norway including maternity leave, mortgage assistance etc etc. I can’t remember how long I have if I lost my job though.

More of the same for me just doesn’t seem logical. I’m sure lots of areas are not affected as much as Peterborough or other areas and it all seems a bit silly to vote placed on that but that’s up to them to vote as they see fit.

Dave!

[Beany]

See what happens when you state your convictions Dave!!! You just get shouted down and called a stupid racist.

Wait, that's not what happened.

Oh well, eh?

[V8Granite]

Surely if your reasons aren't racist you won't get called a racist.

I freely admit I was on the fence at the time of the vote, mostly because both campaigns were dog shit, but its pretty clear now that leaving is a bad thing.

I’ll give it a go but it didn’t work before

Please note, this is solely based on where I live and what I’ve seen on my travels.

Edited for speeeeeeling mistakes.

Sorry Dave for the slow response - real life getting in the way of internet ranting!

I hear what you say, but I'd argue that what you're really describing is an economic problem rather than an ethnicity one. When people are hard up, they tend to cluster where their support networks are, and, unfortunately, when things are really shit, the kind of anti-social stuff you describe creeps out of the woodwork. In the examples you give, it just so happens that the effect is correlated with ethnicity (and its easier to identify, as the people concerned have clearly identifiable tribes) - but the same thing can be seen in other areas with poverty problems without the racial element.

Basically, IMO, it comes down to this - when there's not enough pie to go round, you have two choices: stop some people sharing the pie, or bake a bigger fucking pie. Experience shows that taking the first strategy ultimately leads to a smaller pie (fewer economically active, shrinking economy etc etc), so the same issues of scarcity and perceived unfairness come back further down the line (just with different groups of people identified as "the problem"). Hence I take the view of grow the whole pie for everyone, and ensure it's divvied up fairly.

There is definitely some truth in what you say but money is not an issue here. It would have been interesting to see if the segregation would have happened anyway but in smaller numbers but that’s impossible to know.

The biggest leave voter I know is an Italian who retired a little before my Dad and came over during the 70s, he hates anyone who hasn’t tried to integrate. I’m not sure what kind of barriers people had when moving to the area/ country in the 70s and that’s why they are a bit more angry about things as it was quite relaxed from when I experienced things.

None of these comments mean I think UK first by any stretch, there are lots of people I’d happily send to the North Pole and replace with people from all over the world

Dave!

[V8Granite]

See what happens when you state your convictions Dave!!! You just get shouted down and called a stupid racist.

Wait, that's not what happened.

Oh well, eh?

I’ve been called a bigot, idiot, retard, cult follower and no end of stuff.

Just look at some of the things you have posted. I voted leave so any comment people make about leave voters is pointed at me as well as other people.

I may start calling anyone who votes labour a Jew hating communist but I see that as ridiculous as anyone voting leave being an un-educated racist.

Dave!

[DaveE]

And, specifically, why did you vote for it (given the reasons that weren't, that you listed above)?

I'm going to decline trying to answer that - I'm sure you understand...

This isn't intended as rude etc, but I don't understand.

I'll go first if it helps: I voted remain because I didn't know what we were voting for (it's now totally clear that at the time no one else knew what "Leave Europe" actually meant, or would result in). So I voted with for the status quo.

I accepted that there must be downsides to membership (there are downsides to everything*) but I knew there were upsides, and what some of those were (employment, travel, human rights, being "in the tent" etc - roughly things like that).

So rather than leaping out of the plane without a parachute, and hoping to find one on the way down, I thought I'd stay put.

Having said that, I consider myself very fortunate: I live in a nice place, I have a good job, most importantly I have choice and opportunity - great swathes don't. And great swathes have seen huge, negative changes for the past 10-20 years.

It's just a shame that huge numbers who voted for Brexit will end up suffering even more because of it.

It's all so fvcked up.

I read an article the other day about how it was English people who live in Wales that were the majority leave voters there - and in doing so are likely to have fvcked Wales for the Welsh. A single example of the utter shit-storm that this has and will cause.

There's no "good" way forward, and no "good" way back.

I genuinely despair and loose sleep over it - and like I said, I'm lucky, fortunate, advantaged etc.

* ironically it appeared the leave camp were promising people we could leave with only upsides...

[dinny_g]

See what happens when you state your convictions Dave!!! You just get shouted down and called a stupid racist.

Wait, that's not what happened.

Oh well, eh?

The word Racist was used in 20% of the first 70 posts that followed mine last night and that was without me stating my convictions.

[Beany]

Ah, no, the idiots are the ones who can't even begin to articulate their position. They rightly get mocked, ridiculed, and abused on the subject because if they can't defend their stance on one of the biggest constitutional shake up the country has seen in generations, then why should I (or anyone) respect their position?

That, and....well, you know...

[Broccers]

'loose' grrr

The people of Wales hope for a better future as their current situation is rubbish - I mean who holidays in Wales? Its fucking rubbish

[Jobbo]

'loose' grrr

The people of Wales hope for a better future as their current situation is rubbish - I mean who holidays in Wales? Its fucking rubbish

Scarbados better, yeah?

[dinny_g]

This isn't intended as rude etc, but I don't understand.

It’s the same objections to revealing their reasons every time: “they’ll get torn apart”. Well guess what, if you can’t defend your reasons from being torn apart, maybe they’re not very good reasons? Or maybe you haven’t understood the wider picture well enough to defend your position, in which case are you right to hold onto your opinion quite so tightly?

It’s to do with the medium of a message board rather than the specifics...

I post, 5 replies. By the time i’ve responded to the first, there are 5 more etc.

Happy to sit down with anyone over a pint and debate it through but it’s futile here