Bye Bye Boris!

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Swervin_Mervin
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Swervin_Mervin »

Nefarious wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:58 pm
Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:52 pm Do you really believe that's the case? The media lies to whip up a storm....etc etc
Yes I see it in the media and that's shameful, but my comments were based on one-to-one conversations with real people and personal accounts from non-british friends, which in many ways is far scarier.

My brother employs around 20 mostly polish builders in London, and the anecdotal reports from them are that the incidence of open in-your-face racism (i.e. "go back where you came from" etc etc) to either them or their families has increased from "occasionally" to "several times a week" since the vote. I know three who have gone back to Poland directly as a result of what they feel is an increasingly hostile environment.

My site manager (Croatian/German) was recently accosted in the street, accused of being Polish, told he "couldn't even speak the fucking language" (he speaks fluent English, Polish, Czech, and Russian, as well as Croatian and German), and was spat at. That shit hasn't been the norm since the 70s.

Personally, one of the things I find most noticeable is how much more emboldened those with already iffy views have become. e.g. Older folks who may have previously harbored such views now appear to feel free to spout forth to random strangers on how all the ills of the world are down to muslims. Middle class people in leafy Surrey who've only ever seen an immigrant from their Range Rover now feel legitimated in openly saying that "taking control of our borders" should be top of the government agenda. "Normal" businesspeople seemly now openly blaming economic shortcomings on "scrounging foreigners".
That's fair enough - we can only speak from our own experiences and those we know I guess, and I guess I'm clearly shielded from it to some extent. I'm certainly in agreement that it's given those with questionable views the confidence to speak out when previously they wouldn't have. However, I again wonder how much of that effect is down to the media whipping up the storm and giving a few nutters more of a public platform - Tommy Robinson anyone?

However, I still don't think it's quite the epidemic it's made out to me - we still remain one of, if not the, most liberal and accommodating country in the world. We have a long way to go sure, but we should never lose sight of that fact.
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Nefarious
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Broccers wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:11 pm I'm saying you had no idea about wages 15 years ago in trades as you worked in IT. 😃. I've no idea just listen to mates telling me who should know.
I have a fair idea, as I was doing payroll/accounting/legal for my brother's development company in 2006.

In fact, I have my old wage files on my computer.

In 2006, we paid unskilled guys £7.50/hr and tradesmen between £11 and £13
In 2017 (my most recent file), unskilled guys were on either £8.50 or £9 and skilled guys were between £12 and £15. I'm not aware of any changes since 2017.
Everyone was paid the same regardless of nationality.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough"
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ZedLeg
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by ZedLeg »

dinny_g wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:09 pm
Broccers wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:47 pm My best mate lives and works in Spain Dinny - its not that simple - he fits air con and recently had to do a 6 month course to get n.i.c.e to continue working - night school and an exam in Spanish. He also pays the tax to work each month. Real world shizzle. But nothing to do with brexit :)
Yeah I know mate, that’s my point.

Person I know was a carpenter (female) who went to Spain to work. She needed to renew her work permit every 3 months. She can’t pay tax without a work permit. The work permit can only be applied for in a set 2’week period each quarter. Early and late applications are not considered. Even getting it to them on day 1 of the application period doesn’t guarantee you’ll get it in time to avoid emergency tax. Which you DONT get back.

She would budget €3k to €4K each year in lost tax.

The situation hasn’t changed despite now being married to a Spaniard, having 3 Spanish Kids, being granted permanent residency and now running her own company. Because despite being an EU citizen living in an EU member state, she’s not Spanish.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the EU is not the Utopia of equal treatment that many think it is.
Yeah but none of that is the EU, it’s Spain. The EU didn’t make up their employment or tax laws.

Brexit is going to make it a lot worse for British people living and working on the continent.
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ZedLeg
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Nefarious wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:33 pm
Broccers wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:11 pm I'm saying you had no idea about wages 15 years ago in trades as you worked in IT. 😃. I've no idea just listen to mates telling me who should know.
I have a fair idea, as I was doing payroll/accounting/legal for my brother's development company in 2006.

In fact, I have my old wage files on my computer.

In 2006, we paid unskilled guys £7.50/hr and tradesmen between £11 and £13
In 2017 (my most recent file), unskilled guys were on either £8.50 or £9 and skilled guys were between £12 and £15. I'm not aware of any changes since 2017.
Everyone was paid the same regardless of nationality.
Stop talking sense Nef.
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Broccers
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Not talking unskilled Neil you were. Ask any British trades over 50 years old and it might validate the point. I don't know it's hearsay.

Back to me, the racist thing tho. Never have been and find it offensive being labeled as such.
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GG.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by GG. »

Nefarious wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:33 pm
Broccers wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:11 pm I'm saying you had no idea about wages 15 years ago in trades as you worked in IT. 😃. I've no idea just listen to mates telling me who should know.
I have a fair idea, as I was doing payroll/accounting/legal for my brother's development company in 2006.

In fact, I have my old wage files on my computer.

In 2006, we paid unskilled guys £7.50/hr and tradesmen between £11 and £13
In 2017 (my most recent file), unskilled guys were on either £8.50 or £9 and skilled guys were between £12 and £15. I'm not aware of any changes since 2017.
Everyone was paid the same regardless of nationality.
That's about a 15% real terms pay cut taking into account inflation. By my rough calculations in 2017 the unskilled labourer should have been on £10.31 per hour and the range for skilled £15.12 to £17.87 with 10yr inflation running at 37.5%
Last edited by GG. on Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Broccers
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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GG. wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:42 pm
Nefarious wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:33 pm
Broccers wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:11 pm I'm saying you had no idea about wages 15 years ago in trades as you worked in IT. 😃. I've no idea just listen to mates telling me who should know.
I have a fair idea, as I was doing payroll/accounting/legal for my brother's development company in 2006.

In fact, I have my old wage files on my computer.

In 2006, we paid unskilled guys £7.50/hr and tradesmen between £11 and £13
In 2017 (my most recent file), unskilled guys were on either £8.50 or £9 and skilled guys were between £12 and £15. I'm not aware of any changes since 2017.
Everyone was paid the same regardless of nationality.
That's a real terms pay cut taking into account inflation. By my rough calculations in 2017 the unskilled labourer should have been on £10.31 per hour and the range for skilled £15.12 to £17.87
Careful you'll be in my camp soon ;)
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GG.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by GG. »

I'm not passing comment as to why there has been that reduction, just was interested to work out % increase / decrease inflation adjusted!
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ZedLeg
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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I’d like to see some evidence that low wages is tied to EU immigration.

Wages for bottom rung workers are shit because companies can get away with paying them shit.

It’s not like you can negotiate your rate when you’re a day labourer or picking packing in warehouse.
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Nefarious
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Swervin_Mervin wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:21 pm That's fair enough - we can only speak from our own experiences and those we know I guess, and I guess I'm clearly shielded from it to some extent. I'm certainly in agreement that it's given those with questionable views the confidence to speak out when previously they wouldn't have. However, I again wonder how much of that effect is down to the media whipping up the storm and giving a few nutters more of a public platform - Tommy Robinson anyone?

However, I still don't think it's quite the epidemic it's made out to me - we still remain one of, if not the, most liberal and accommodating country in the world. We have a long way to go sure, but we should never lose sight of that fact.
I agree we're not at Australian levels of racism, but everything seems to be moving in a direction I'm deeply uncomfortable with. You only have to look at the parallel conversation with Broccers to see exactly what I'm talking about. Normal man-in-the-street kind of fella, voted Brexit, wants to "take back control", appears to now think open abuse of foreigners is OK if you think they might be hurting your pay packet. Fairly normal attitude at the moment from what I can make out.

And the media thing. It's all getting a bit Harbermass/fourth sphere. Does life reflect the media or does the media reflect life? Does it make it any less bad if the media is the mechanism behind changing attitudes?
Interesting you mention Tommy Robinson - he's definitely one of the players pushing the new "acceptable face of racism" agenda. Rhetoric like "We need an open an honest debate about immigration" is just an excuse to allow people to say xenophobic things.

My point is not about the mechanisms by which it's happening, nor the level of underlying low-level racism that existed before, but rather that Brexit has been a catalyst for shift up the scale across the board (moderates move to discussing "immigration issues" as a matter of priority; closet racists feel free to wear their views openly etc), and there's been an undeniable impact on the actual experience of non-brits living in the UK.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Middle-aged Dirtbag
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Nefarious
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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I'll try a third time:
Nefarious wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:06 pm Just to be absolutely clear - you're sticking to the position that hostility to foreigners is OK because of perceived downward pressure on wages?
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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In my last job we had a workforce that was roughly 1/3rd EU non-Brits. Immediately after the referendum result applications from EU countries stopped almost entirely, and around 1/3rd of those that worked for us moved to other EU countries over the next couple of years and all of them said that they no longer felt welcome due to an increase in incidents like Nef talked about, being told to go home etc. (and we're talking about people from Italy and France, as well as eastern Europeans) and the rhetoric in the mainstream press.

I want my liberal, tolerant and inclusive country back. I don't want Lil Tommeh and his brain dead supporters thinking that their views are in any way palatable. And I'm afraid spouting the usual "immigrants took our jobs/drive down wages" absolutely is racist and has no basis in truth. If you find that offensive, toughen up buttercup.
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Nefarious
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Broccers wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:38 pm Not talking unskilled Neil you were. Ask any British trades over 50 years old and it might validate the point. I don't know it's hearsay.

Back to me, the racist thing tho. Never have been and find it offensive being labeled as such.
So I've given you actual FACTS. Wages that were actually paid by a building company over the specific time period we're discussing.
What are you coming back with to support your argument again?

And to be clear, I haven't labelled you as anything. Your comments stand as what they are. I feel it's evidence of the exact kind of racism "creep" in attitudes I'm talking about. Others can make their own judgements.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Nefarious wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:59 pm
You only have to look at the parallel conversation with Broccers to see exactly what I'm talking about. Normal man-in-the-street kind of fella, voted Brexit, wants to "take back control", appears to now think open abuse of foreigners is OK if you think they might be hurting your pay packet. Fairly normal attitude at the moment from what I can make out.
Yet you want an independent Scotland :lol:

Honestly couldnt make it up.
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ZedLeg
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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What’s that got to do with it Broccers?

Back on the trolling deflection?
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Broccers
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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ZedLeg wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:12 pm What’s that got to do with it Broccers?

Back on the trolling deflection?
If you cant grasp the answer then theres no point in replying :)

Good to see everyones opinions :)
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Rich B
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Rich B »

Hostility towards foreigners who “took our jeeerbs’ isn’t anything new, it’s just relevant to the current headline. Unfortunately Brexit has given these racists the impresssion that the whole country agrees with them.
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

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Do we think the reduction in Boris' majority will precipitate an early election? He's got zero chance of getting a deal through, surely?
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Nefarious
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Re: Bye Bye Boris!

Post by Nefarious »

Right. Three goes at trying to get you to answer the simple question about your position re. hostility to foreigners, but no response. I assume we're all free to draw our own conclusions.
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