No Longer the New New Thing

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Mito Man
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by Mito Man »

I’m not sure how Mclaren chargers work but when the power trips and eventually reconnects the i3 charger just resumes charging. My flat carpark has 2 banks of 4 rapid chargers and it’s quite normal for the fuse to trip disabling half of them but whenever the car park attendant flips it back all the cars resume charging.
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RobYob
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by RobYob »

There's at least a thousand times as many i3 out there as P1. McLaren will have spent their development cash where it makes the most impact, that won't have been charging ease of use or long term durability of the battery. BMWs priorities for i3 development would be skewed the other way.
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mik
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by mik »

Surely checking the chargers just becomes the first job of the day for the butler?
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Mito Man
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by Mito Man »

Don’t Mclaren have an iPhone app for that?
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RobYob
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by RobYob »

An app for that... Butlers have gotten so bloody lazy these days.
DaveE
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by DaveE »

I really think that hybrid is the worst of both worlds.

Was reading about the new Ferrari SF90 (?) and apparently it has a 4l v8 that develops virtually 800bhp, the electric gubbins takes the total to just shy of 1000bhp, but I think the article (maybe EVO?) said it adds 275kg in weight? (And a whole heap of complexity/risk etc.)

I know it's kind of that they have to make a hybrid, but an 800bhp, non-hybrid, 275kg lighter, simpler/less risky version is surely more appealing?
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JLv3.0
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by JLv3.0 »

Don't forget torque-fill from the electric motors - that's a real thing and allows really revvy, peaky internal combustion engines to be used.
DaveE
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by DaveE »

JLv3.0 wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:29 pm really revvy, peaky internal combustion engines to be used.
You say that like it's a bad thing? 😉
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JLv3.0
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by JLv3.0 »

No not in the slightest! 😂 I see the boring battery whirry gay motors as enablers for awesomeness!! 👍🏼
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Orange Cola
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by Orange Cola »

I want to see hydrogen powered IC engines. Best of every world, surely?
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V8Granite
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by V8Granite »

JLv3.0 wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:08 pm No not in the slightest! 😂 I see the boring battery whirry gay motors as enablers for awesomeness!! 👍🏼
You sound like a salesman for the Prius 8-)

Dave!
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dinny_g
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by dinny_g »

Back to the original issue with the P1 - battery draining.

Install one, or several, Tesla Powerwalls and Job Jobbed ??
JLv3.0 wrote: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:26 pm I say this rarely Dave, but listen to Dinny because he's right.
Rich B wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:57 pm but Dinny was right…
DaveE
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by DaveE »

Orange Cola wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:07 pm I want to see hydrogen powered IC engines. Best of every world, surely?
I think it's actually the worst of both worlds:
  • - you need lots of electricity to create the hydrogen
    - then you need to store it, transport it etc
    - so you need containers, trucks etc
    - you need filling stations with big tanks, pumps etc
    - the specific energy you get from burning it is less than petrol
    - so cars use more, generate less power etc
    - and cars still need all the complex, heavy, maintenance intensive stuff for a combustion engine
So you have all the infrastructure, manufacturing, servicing/maintenance etc as petrol, but for less power/range.

You also get really slow, small, incremental benefits in efficiency of the whole system too.

At the moment, if we improve the way we generate electricity, all electric cars benefit. But in a hydrogen system, all the "fixed" costs of storage, distribution, the cars/engines etc remain.

Only small gains will be made at the very start of the process.
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Jobbo
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by Jobbo »

DaveE wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:43 pm
Orange Cola wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:07 pm I want to see hydrogen powered IC engines. Best of every world, surely?
I think it's actually the worst of both worlds:
  • - you need lots of electricity to create the hydrogen
    - then you need to store it, transport it etc
    - so you need containers, trucks etc
    - you need filling stations with big tanks, pumps etc
    - the specific energy you get from burning it is less than petrol
    - so cars use more, generate less power etc
    - and cars still need all the complex, heavy, maintenance intensive stuff for a combustion engine
So you have all the infrastructure, manufacturing, servicing/maintenance etc as petrol, but for less power/range.

You also get really slow, small, incremental benefits in efficiency of the whole system too.

At the moment, if we improve the way we generate electricity, all electric cars benefit. But in a hydrogen system, all the "fixed" costs of storage, distribution, the cars/engines etc remain.

Only small gains will be made at the very start of the process.
I agree with Dave. And if you're going to go to the expense of creating an infrastructure to store hydrogen, you'll want to get the most energy back from it. You do that with a fuel cell, not an IC engine; a fuel cell is about 60% efficient at turning the hydrogen into electricity (and an electric motor is about 85-90% efficient, whereas the IC engine is about 25% efficient (a bit better than a petrol engine). Basically you'll go at least twice as far on the same amount of hydrogen if your car has a fuel cell, not an IC engine.
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by DaveE »

Jobbo wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:59 pm
DaveE wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:43 pm
Orange Cola wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:07 pm I want to see hydrogen powered IC engines. Best of every world, surely?
I think it's actually the worst of both worlds:
  • - you need lots of electricity to create the hydrogen
    - then you need to store it, transport it etc
    - so you need containers, trucks etc
    - you need filling stations with big tanks, pumps etc
    - the specific energy you get from burning it is less than petrol
    - so cars use more, generate less power etc
    - and cars still need all the complex, heavy, maintenance intensive stuff for a combustion engine
So you have all the infrastructure, manufacturing, servicing/maintenance etc as petrol, but for less power/range.

You also get really slow, small, incremental benefits in efficiency of the whole system too.

At the moment, if we improve the way we generate electricity, all electric cars benefit. But in a hydrogen system, all the "fixed" costs of storage, distribution, the cars/engines etc remain.

Only small gains will be made at the very start of the process.
I agree with Dave. And if you're going to go to the expense of creating an infrastructure to store hydrogen, you'll want to get the most energy back from it. You do that with a fuel cell, not an IC engine; a fuel cell is about 60% efficient at turning the hydrogen into electricity (and an electric motor is about 85-90% efficient, whereas the IC engine is about 25% efficient (a bit better than a petrol engine). Basically you'll go at least twice as far on the same amount of hydrogen if your car has a fuel cell, not an IC engine.
And if it's just a fuel cell driving electric motors, then you have all the "downsides" of an EV, but with the addition of that creating, storing, distribution of a liquid fuel.

Either way, I think it's a lose-lose vs plug-in EVs

Simon, you made a very valid point too - that if you don't burn the hydrogen, you then use a fuel cell to turn it back into electricity in the car, to drive the motors. So you've converted electricity into hydrogen, stored/shipped the hydrogen, and then you convert it back to electricity again.
Last edited by DaveE on Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jobbo
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by Jobbo »

The upside of hydrogen fuel cell cars is that you can refill them as easily as petrol cars at filling stations. That's the upside of the rather big downside. Maybe the downside wouldn't be quite so bad if you could repurpose existing petrol filling stations, oil refineries etc? Hydrogen also doesn't take up massive amounts of space to store enough energy for 500 miles, unlike a battery pack.
DaveE
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by DaveE »

Jobbo wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:06 pm The upside of hydrogen fuel cell cars is that you can refill them as easily as petrol cars at filling stations. That's the upside of the rather big downside. Maybe the downside wouldn't be quite so bad if you could repurpose existing petrol filling stations, oil refineries etc? Hydrogen also doesn't take up massive amounts of space to store enough energy for 500 miles, unlike a battery pack.
At the moment, yes.

But charging tech etc is marching forward and soon you'll be able to "splash and dash" a battery in a way that would cover most journeys with a short charge.

Obviously for full charging, you'll need to wait relatively longer.

But something I've said before re quick-charging phones is that it changes the way you charge them. You don't leave them on a charger for hours, because you don't need to. A few mins will give enough charge for me to use the thing until such time as I get to the next place I can charge it.

I can see cars being the same - short charges for short hops. Long journeys are generally planned anyway, so you'd have plenty of time to fully charge the car.
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Mito Man
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by Mito Man »

We’re only a few years away from charging up an electric car 80-90% in 5 minutes. That’ll be the nail in the coffin for the combustion engine.
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GG.
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by GG. »

Mito Man wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:17 pm That’ll be the nail in the coffin for the combustion engine.
Other than, of course, the absence of power generation to provide all the juice to charge millions of electric vehicles and on the go charging infrastructure.

Fast charging is only 1/3 of the problem for the mass rollout of EVs.
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Jobbo
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Re: No Longer the New New Thing

Post by Jobbo »

Based on the power requirements for that, I look forward to the skyline looking like this everywhere:
Image
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