737 Max

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mik
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737 Max

Post by mik » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:37 pm

yikes

This could prove expensive for Boeing.....

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Simon
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Re: 737 Max

Post by Simon » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:41 pm

They've fucked this right up. Because of the high bypass engines on the Max 8 they've been pushed forward and high up on the wing (for ground clearance). This has apparently affected the CofG and airflow over the wing, necessitating this bodged safety measure.
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Mito Man
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Re: 737 Max

Post by Mito Man » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:49 pm

Simon wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:41 pm
They've fucked this right up. Because of the high bypass engines on the Max 8 they've been pushed forward and high up on the wing (for ground clearance). This has apparently affected the CofG and airflow over the wing, necessitating this bodged safety measure.
Is that from the air accident investigators or aircraft forum experts?
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NotoriousREV
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Re: 737 Max

Post by NotoriousREV » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:01 pm

Mito Man wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:49 pm
Simon wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:41 pm
They've fucked this right up. Because of the high bypass engines on the Max 8 they've been pushed forward and high up on the wing (for ground clearance). This has apparently affected the CofG and airflow over the wing, necessitating this bodged safety measure.
Is that from the air accident investigators or aircraft forum experts?
No, it’s Boeing’s explanation for why they introduced the MCAS system, which is believed to be responsible for the Lion Air crash, which followed the same flight pattern as this crash.
Mo’ money, mo’ tard.

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DeskJockey
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Re: 737 Max

Post by DeskJockey » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:57 pm

Their stock took a big hit. Wonder if there are penalties in their contracts if the planes prove not to be air worthy within a "warranty" period.
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NotoriousREV
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Re: 737 Max

Post by NotoriousREV » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:16 pm

Statistically, the 737 Max 8 now has the worst safety record of any newly launched airliner since the DeHaviland Comet, which kept falling out of the sky because the windows were the wrong shape.
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mik
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Re: 737 Max

Post by mik » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:08 am

The MCAS system - or more specifically the fact that it’s automatic and unannounced intervention doesn’t appear to have been properly explained/documented as part of flight crew training - seems rather strange.

Would be interesting to get IanF’s opinion on that (if you are able to share it of course Ian)..

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Simon
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Re: 737 Max

Post by Simon » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:08 am

Doesn't Ian fly Airbus?
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JLv3.0
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Re: 737 Max

Post by JLv3.0 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:11 am

I drive an Audi but still know quite a lot about Porsches ;)

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NotoriousREV
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Re: 737 Max

Post by NotoriousREV » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:37 am

mik wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:08 am
The MCAS system - or more specifically the fact that it’s automatic and unannounced intervention doesn’t appear to have been properly explained/documented as part of flight crew training - seems rather strange.

Would be interesting to get IanF’s opinion on that (if you are able to share it of course Ian)..
They introduced MCAS in order to automatically compensate for the handling difference due to the larger engines so that pilots who already had their 737NG rating wouldn’t need to be retrained, which is a massive advantage. Even the override procedure is the same as overriding the autotrim on a 737NG, and MCAS is basically just a fancy autotrim.

What they hadn’t factored in was MCAS doing something odd, and pilots not understanding wtf was going on. It’s like a car manufacturer knowing their car veers right on the brakes, so they make it automatically apply some left steering whenever you brake, but then it sometimes applies some left steering without the brakes being applied. If you know it’s coming, you can drive round it, but if it suddenly happens you might end up fucked.
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Broccers
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Re: 737 Max

Post by Broccers » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:50 am

Did you intentionally post at 737 Dave? :lol:

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JonMad
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Re: 737 Max

Post by JonMad » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:51 am

Tightens your line under power like an umbrella hooked round a lamppost [Car, March 2019]

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Mito Man
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Re: 737 Max

Post by Mito Man » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:06 am

The must surprising thing to me is that moving the engines forward causes the pitch to go up a little.
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mik
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Re: 737 Max

Post by mik » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:14 am

Broccers wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:50 am
Did you intentionally post at 737 Dave? :lol:
8-)

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JLv3.0
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Re: 737 Max

Post by JLv3.0 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:26 am

NotoriousREV wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:37 am
What they hadn’t factored in was MCAS doing something odd, and pilots not understanding wtf was going on. It’s like a car manufacturer knowing their car veers right on the brakes, so they make it automatically apply some left steering whenever you brake, but then it sometimes applies some left steering without the brakes being applied. If you know it’s coming, you can drive round it, but if it suddenly happens you might end up fucked.
From an outsider's point of view, it sounds like Boeing have their arse exposed right out in the wind on this one. Interesting to see how it pans out.

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mik
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Re: 737 Max

Post by mik » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:45 am

Mito Man wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:06 am
The must surprising thing to me is that moving the engines forward causes the pitch to go up a little.
Engines are below and ahead of the Centre Of Lift. (Which is always behind the Centre Of Gravity on commercial planes for stability reason). Thrust therefore pitches the nose up. Mount them lower or further forward and the “lever” increases, so the pitch effect under power increases.

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Carlos
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Re: 737 Max

Post by Carlos » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:19 am

The worrying part of that link is Boeing decided against providing Pilots with more detailed information on the system to prevent "Average Pilots" getting confused 😳🙄

What sort of people are flying these things 😥

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Mito Man
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Re: 737 Max

Post by Mito Man » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:24 am

mik wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:45 am
Mito Man wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:06 am
The must surprising thing to me is that moving the engines forward causes the pitch to go up a little.
Engines are below and ahead of the Centre Of Lift. (Which is always behind the Centre Of Gravity on commercial planes for stability reason). Thrust therefore pitches the nose up. Mount them lower or further forward and the “lever” increases, so the pitch effect under power increases.
It must be an odd sensation when they idle engines coming in to land! Although I guess the computer sorts out the pitch so it feels ‘normal’.
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NotoriousREV
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Re: 737 Max

Post by NotoriousREV » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:29 am

Carlos wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:19 am
The worrying part of that link is Boeing decided against providing Pilots with more detailed information on the system to prevent "Average Pilots" getting confused 😳🙄

What sort of people are flying these things 😥
Don't forget, AF447 was a perfectly serviceable aircraft was flown into the sea due, partly, to the fact the FO just kept pulling full back on the stick whilst the stall warning went off for nearly a minute. I'm not a pilot, but even I know that there's not many situations where that's going to be the correct answer.
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NotoriousREV
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Re: 737 Max

Post by NotoriousREV » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:36 am

mik wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:14 am
Broccers wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:50 am
Did you intentionally post at 737 Dave? :lol:
8-)
Sure, why not? :lol:
Mo’ money, mo’ tard.

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