Indy 2 Electric Boogaloo

[Swervin_Mervin]

Most of the national parties seem to have written off Scotland to the SNP tbh.

Maybe a better option would be a national vote for independence from Downing St, build a wall round it.

Sad isn't it? Although it's refelcted in many ways across the rest of the UK as well. See the whole "levelling up" bollocks.

[Jobbo]

If it still exists than it's intact - weakened, smaller for sure and very much different but still intact.

'It's just a flesh wound'

[dinny_g]

so I hope to see an illegitimate vote take place

This is the most important bit. It will be terrible if a vote for Scottish Independence is a short term vote against Boris Johnson's Tory Party. The Union has been around for several hundred years before Johnson came into Power and could be for many hundreds of years after.

And Delphi... you say:

I don't think the level of control the EU would have over Scotland is anything like the current situation of Scotland as part of the UK.

I'm not certain that is true. Scotland, in the EU, would be a small nation in the EU alongside the likes of Ireland, Latvia, Estonia, Cyprus etc. Despite trying to be one size fits all, there really is a fair of difference in the level of influence the big 5 Have/Had and the rest.

and @Jobbo

[Jobbo]

so I hope to see an illegitimate vote take place

This is the most important bit. It will be terrible if a vote for Scottish Independence is a short term vote against Boris Johnson's Tory Party. The Union has been around for several hundred years before Johnson came into Power and could be for many hundreds of years after.

And Delphi... you say:

I don't think the level of control the EU would have over Scotland is anything like the current situation of Scotland as part of the UK.

I'm not certain that is true. Scotland, in the EU, would be a small nation in the EU alongside the likes of Ireland, Latvia, Estonia, Cyprus etc. Despite trying to be one size fits all, there really is a fair of difference in the level of influence the big 5 Have/Had and the rest.

I think there's more support generally for Scottish independence than there was at the first referendum, so even without Boris potentially influencing the vote I'd expect it to be a close call but a vote to leave.

As for how Scotland would fare in the EU, there's really not a lot of control they exert over the member states despite the guff spouted as part of the Brexit campaigning and the nonsense Jacob Rees-Mogg et al go on about now - see tweet below for example. However as a smaller state the Scottish would benefit from a net income from the EU rather than being a net contributor as the UK was. I don't think they'll necessarily get back in easily as an independent state but I think the EU is more flexible than it is given credit for, and may be willing to welcome a former member which was taken out against its will back in on a fast-track.

[DeskJockey]

so I hope to see an illegitimate vote take place

This is the most important bit. It will be terrible if a vote for Scottish Independence is a short term vote against Boris Johnson's Tory Party. The Union has been around for several hundred years before Johnson came into Power and could be for many hundreds of years after.

And Delphi... you say:

I don't think the level of control the EU would have over Scotland is anything like the current situation of Scotland as part of the UK.

I'm not certain that is true. Scotland, in the EU, would be a small nation in the EU alongside the likes of Ireland, Latvia, Estonia, Cyprus etc. Despite trying to be one size fits all, there really is a fair of difference in the level of influence the big 5 Have/Had and the rest.

and @Jobbo

Population of Scotland is roughly the same as Denmark's. If you look back you'll see that we've managed to get most of what we wanted while remaining members: not in Schengen, not in the Euro, not in the defence agreement and more. While a smaller nation might have to fight more to get what they want it isn't impossible, but does require that the MEPs take the job seriously.

[ZedLeg]

Most of the national parties seem to have written off Scotland to the SNP tbh.

Maybe a better option would be a national vote for independence from Downing St, build a wall round it.

Sad isn't it? Although it's refelcted in many ways across the rest of the UK as well. See the whole "levelling up" bollocks.

Aye, part of my reasoning for voting yes last time was that the Westminster government was becoming increasingly Londoncentric and if anything it's got worse since then. The M25 might as well be the end of the world for a lot of them.

[Delphi]

Population of Scotland is roughly the same as Denmark's. If you look back you'll see that we've managed to get most of what we wanted while remaining members: not in Schengen, not in the Euro, not in the defence agreement and more. While a smaller nation might have to fight more to get what they want it isn't impossible, but does require that the MEPs take the job seriously.

Denmark is in Schengen!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_ ... nt_members

Denmark's economy is 50% larger than Scotland's even factoring in North Sea Oil & Gas, which I doubt they'd get to keep all of if they went independent.

[drcarlos]

Population of Scotland is roughly the same as Denmark's. If you look back you'll see that we've managed to get most of what we wanted while remaining members: not in Schengen, not in the Euro, not in the defence agreement and more. While a smaller nation might have to fight more to get what they want it isn't impossible, but does require that the MEPs take the job seriously.

Denmark is in Schengen!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_ ... nt_members

Was going to say, the amount of travel i've done thrugh CPH airport and having to go via passport control for travel back to the UK where all other european flights go from an uncontrolled area made me think they must be in Schengen.

[Swervin_Mervin]

Population of Scotland is roughly the same as Denmark's. If you look back you'll see that we've managed to get most of what we wanted while remaining members: not in Schengen, not in the Euro, not in the defence agreement and more. While a smaller nation might have to fight more to get what they want it isn't impossible, but does require that the MEPs take the job seriously.

Denmark is in Schengen!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_ ... nt_members

Denmark's economy is 50% larger than Scotland's even factoring in North Sea Oil & Gas, which I doubt they'd get to keep all of if they went independent.

Yeah I think the comparison against Denmark is being very generous to Scotland. And the bunfight over North Sea O&G will be horrific.

Scotland's influence in the EU will be minimal - althpugh I don't think Sturgeon cares about that - she just wants an in to the gravy train for retirement.

And don't assume that it will be easy to get in - aside from the reasons I've mentioned above, the EU has historically been reluctant to get involved in the debate over "sub-states" gaining independence from their state and then entry to EU. It would cause massive problems in Spain for example, who I'd imagine might put up a lot of resistance to a Scotland accession.

[Swervin_Mervin]

Most of the national parties seem to have written off Scotland to the SNP tbh.

Maybe a better option would be a national vote for independence from Downing St, build a wall round it.

Sad isn't it? Although it's refelcted in many ways across the rest of the UK as well. See the whole "levelling up" bollocks.

Aye, part of my reasoning for voting yes last time was that the Westminster government was becoming increasingly Londoncentric and if anything it's got worse since then. The M25 might as well be the end of the world for a lot of them.

I think that's the one thing that has changed hugely since 2014 - much of the rest of the UK probably now has a lot more sympathy for an Indy vote, even if they don't want to see it happen.

[ZedLeg]

Spain basically said they would try and Veto any attempt for Scotland to join the EU last time. Meanwhile we had Catalans travelling to Scotland to show support

[ZedLeg]

Sad isn't it? Although it's refelcted in many ways across the rest of the UK as well. See the whole "levelling up" bollocks.

Aye, part of my reasoning for voting yes last time was that the Westminster government was becoming increasingly Londoncentric and if anything it's got worse since then. The M25 might as well be the end of the world for a lot of them.

I think that's the one thing that has changed hugely since 2014 - much of the rest of the UK probably now has a lot more sympathy for an Indy vote, even if they don't want to see it happen.

I believe that anyone in Northern England, the midlands and anywhere to the west of the M5 will be welcome as part of an independent Scotland

[Jobbo]

Aye, part of my reasoning for voting yes last time was that the Westminster government was becoming increasingly Londoncentric and if anything it's got worse since then. The M25 might as well be the end of the world for a lot of them.

I think that's the one thing that has changed hugely since 2014 - much of the rest of the UK probably now has a lot more sympathy for an Indy vote, even if they don't want to see it happen.

I believe that anyone in Northern England, the midlands and anywhere to the west of the M5 will be welcome as part of an independent Scotland

Well I am glad I qualify on two of those grounds. I think northerners is a bit generous though; historically those immediately south of Hadrian's Wall were your natural enemies

[ZedLeg]

Groundskeeper willy had it right

[Jobbo]

One further point from me - without Scotland's seats in Parliament, under First Past the Post we'd have a democratic system even more biased to one party. So it would not be good for the remainder of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

[dinny_g]

Groundskeeper willy had it right

[V8Granite]

so I hope to see an illegitimate vote take place

This is the most important bit. It will be terrible if a vote for Scottish Independence is a short term vote against Boris Johnson's Tory Party. The Union has been around for several hundred years before Johnson came into Power and could be for many hundreds of years after.

And Delphi... you say:

I don't think the level of control the EU would have over Scotland is anything like the current situation of Scotland as part of the UK.

I'm not certain that is true. Scotland, in the EU, would be a small nation in the EU alongside the likes of Ireland, Latvia, Estonia, Cyprus etc. Despite trying to be one size fits all, there really is a fair of difference in the level of influence the big 5 Have/Had and the rest.

and @Jobbo

Population of Scotland is roughly the same as Denmark's. If you look back you'll see that we've managed to get most of what we wanted while remaining members: not in Schengen, not in the Euro, not in the defence agreement and more. While a smaller nation might have to fight more to get what they want it isn't impossible, but does require that the MEPs take the job seriously.

Don’t Denmark have lots of lovely money though and they grow huge amounts ?

(Should have read further before replying, this has been covered 🫣)

Dave!

[DeskJockey]

Denmark is in Schengen, I was wrong, but it hasn't stopped them implementing border controls, which was the point about being able to do their own thing to some extent.

The economic argument is equally valid, as should the historical nature of the exemptions be. No reason the EU would agree to them for a new member.

I'm unsure about the Spain comparison though because with the UK outside the EU, they're not causing a rift in a member state. They have no stake in domestic politics, so could accept an application from an independent Scotland.

I can sympathise with the Scots and agree with the desire to be free from Westminster control. But all the same I hope that the UK isn't broken up on the altar of Tory mismanagement, stupidity, greed, and corruption.

[Nefarious]

This isn't a power-grab via independence, it's a power-grab by forcing the refusal of independence.

There is absolutely no way on earth the supreme court is going to grant indyref2 legal status, so the debate over the traditional independence arguments is completely moot.

IMO - the situation will play out like this:
Supreme court confirms illegality of proposed referendum
SNP runs indyref2 anyway
Without legal status or proper administrative support, half-arsed referendum gets sub 10% turnout, but overwhelming "Yes" vote (because only hardcore nationalists bother turning up).
SNP ignores the turnout figures, declares it has a mandate and runs the next election on a pure "we've been cheated out of our independence" ticket
SNP wins 57 of the 59 Westminster seats on the back of Boris hating, Labour ineptitude, and indyref2 hard-done-by-ness

[Simon]

It's a tired old argument of keeping to ask the same question until you get the answer you want, then stop.

If they won Indyref2, would they be campaigning for 'rejoinref1' 8 years later, under the name of democracy? No.

It would be categorically stupid to separate, join the EU and then put up EU border between Scotland and rest-of-UK. Better to put their efforts into campaigning for all of UK to rejoin the EU.

I see the SNP weren't complaining when their bog Brown was in the top jobs.