X R idiots blocking roads

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Alex88
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

Post by Alex88 »

Coaster1 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:50 pm We now have Animal Rebellion now :D

‘Defund meat’
Not paid much attention to Animal Rebillion, but there are multiple, significant issues regarding animal agriculture.
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ZedLeg
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

Post by ZedLeg »

The McPlant is alright, just tastes like a McDs burger from what I remember. It's been about 4 years since I had one.

They're all trash obviously but sometimes it's what you want :lol:
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Mito Man
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

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I thought the McPlant is a new product? I believe that is a Beyond Meat product which I have bought from the supermarket and it's also alright. Prefer the faux meat in the Whopper though. Don't get on with Quorn, just end up on the toilet all day :lol:
How about not having a sig at all?
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Gavster
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

Post by Gavster »

Meat is, of course, a ridiculously complex problem, but in broad strokes we need to reduce intensive farming practices, and if we're going to eat animal protein then try to use a meat source with a lower footprint, e.g. there are enormous differences between the land, water and CO2 costs associated with beef vs chicken.

As for the novel proteins which are receiving strong VC funding to replace animal proteins, they're probably good from a strictly environmental perspective, although I've not seen any major LCAs because they're quite new and production is still scaling. When those LCAs appear there might be some surprises, who knows. The problems they bring are further entrenching corporate concentration in the food system by creating yet category of patent protected food. Also, the debate on ultra-processed foods is still growing and there is a strong possibility that these lab-grown or meat substitutes are going to be worse for human health than animal protein.

Eat less meat? Yes. Eat better quality meat? Yes. Replace meat with ultra-processed food? I wouldn't bother.

Also meat is the most dichotomous subject in food, meat eaters are generally very attached to meat and I've seen data that suggests there's a very high percentage who are in the "I'll never quit meat" category. Not to mention the nutrition transition occurring in countries whose population is growing at a very high rate, such as Africa. These guys are gonna be making and eating more meat in the coming years, not less. Not that I'm saying that's right, but when we're surrounded by news and info from UK, Europe and US (whose life expectancy is going down), we miss the bigger picture on a global scale.

Blah blah blah food policy etc.
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Swervin_Mervin
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

Post by Swervin_Mervin »

Gavster wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:55 pm
Eat less meat? Yes. Eat better quality meat? Yes. Replace meat with ultra-processed food? I wouldn't bother.
Totally agree. And regarding lab-grown/plant-based/etc, I'm a firm believer that many of the foods that we think will be our saviours start to raise questions regarding environmental effects when they're scaled up to a global commercial level. So don't start to think you're saving the planet by eating a plant/lab-meat burger as opposed to a meat burger - it's fantastically more complex than that.

THere is still much more to be learnt/put into practice that can significantly improve traditional meat agriculture's impact on climate. Better farming practices, land-use, hell even feeding cows seaweed. This was an interesting piece recently in the Guardian, of all places.

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/a ... t-champion
DaveE
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

Post by DaveE »

I have a lot of sympathy with the XR woman, and climate protestors in general, in so much as - we're all fucked

Based on: direction of travel in the climate and lack of action/impact needed to slow this.

And the potential impacts on life as we know it are existential - with 2+C change in global temp, everything we know now will become untenable.

It's a thing so huge and scary, that most people, me included, simply can't bring ourselves to fully engage with what it means - and no politician will have the stomach for doing what needs doing.

And the irony that COP26 is about to start - the twenty sixth (!!) climate conference thing - what the fuck are we waiting for?!

To revive my old "If you really wanted one" mantra, if global leaders really wanted to solve this, they could and would.

We don't need 26 conferences to build HS2, or go to war.

And back to XR woman, she's right, the media isn't calling out the politicians strongly enough, given what's at stake here. Fuck your targets and pledges, show me what impact you've actually had over the past two decades.

It's all a bit King Canute - we can have as many conferences, set as many targets, and make as many pledges as we like - the climate neither knows about these, nor gives a fuck about them. The climate is changing anyway.

I can't imagine the stress and pain that allowing yourself to actually engage with issues this big can do to a person.

The point about "your protest was the cause of someone dying" is a difficult one though. Every action we take has consequences, some we know about, some we never will - both good and bad. An unnoticed (by us) kind gesture to someone may have far more impact than we could ever know.

Maybe blocking that road prevented some bad things from happening too - but we'll never know (because they didn't happen).

Maybe it caused some good things to happen.

Having said that, I don't think blocking roads helps their cause.

But maybe that's the irony - we're all so dependent on cars/vehicles/roads that we may agree that the climate's fucked and we have to change, but not me, and not just now, because I'm late for a meeting...
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PaulJ
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

Post by PaulJ »

The XR people must be having some effect as I now feel slightly guilty about us driving from Derby to Chesterfield to our favourite coffee shop this morning. Still, the roads were dry and the car newly washed and sparkling... I couldn't help myself!
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Gavster
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

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Activism seems to have taken a peculiar turn these days, considering that climate activists need to get people on their side, they seem hell bent on pissing people off. I'd wager that most of the people who support XR/Insultate Britain were not converted by the activism, they were supporters anyway, they're preaching to the converted.

When it comes to politicians and big business taking action, that's an area that I've stepped away from because everyone goes to the massive events like COP26 or Davos and says the right thing then walks away and does nothing. Ideas don't make it onto the agenda based on merit or impact, it's all about who can shout the loudest and network with the right people. Even if you did manage that feat of PR snake greasy pole climbing to get there, you'll get stabbed in the back by someone who supported you because they need to push their own agenda but can't say that to your face. And then you need to push and push for years at a global level to get any kind of global agreement created. It sounds obvious, but to get governments and business to take bold steps on climate action will take a catastrophic global event rather than some fucking anoraks blocking a few commuters once week.

As for the interview, the obvious answer to "Your protest caused someone to die" is "climate change will cause a helluva lot more people to die, so if you're so concerned about people dying, why don't you support us to help stop this global threat"
V8Granite
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

Post by V8Granite »

Considering how the evidence of temperature changes is not agreed on and what affects it hasn’t been assured I’d say everyone looking after their own issues is the way forward.

Promote local produce, improve local transport, plant trees, get people enjoying nature as best they can and a natural shift will occur.

I watched a podcast that gathered huge amounts of evidence, physical evidence of a cataclysmic event, an asteroid, which wiped out all the large prey animals, wooly mammoths etc and caused huge ice sheets over North America to disappear fast. It was laughed at as everyone is taught that hunters killed them all, which is laughable but I remember being taught that in school.

I truly believe we think we know more about the earth than we do and fixing local problems will cascade to large scale fixes.

Screaming at people to stop does the opposite.

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ZedLeg
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

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The problem is that doing small local things won’t change anything unless the huge companies that actually cause most of the problems change too.

We’re too far down the line to say that if we started going to the farm shop instead of the supermarket that would force change.

All that would happen is that the multinationals would start setting up fake farm shops to sell their shite.

I stopped eating animal products a couple of years ago but I’m not fooling myself that it makes any difference. Makes me feel better though :lol:
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V8Granite
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

Post by V8Granite »

It’s small things becoming the new normal.

My parents generation didn’t give a crap about recycling, they did give a crap about waste though so things were repaired and lasted.

We consume too much crap, from cars to phones to clothes.

You don’t go up Everest first, you do lots of smaller mountains and hills and progress up. If everyone tries to do one massive thing it’s definitely more likely to fail.

Whatever happens though, someone will make a huge profit from it and skew the results.

Dave!
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ZedLeg
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

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Recycling and repairing comes down to the same thing, it’s just a difference between micro and macro.

Harking back to the old days does us no good either. It’s not the people buying things that have dictated that everything falls apart after a year and can’t be repaired, it’s the companies making them. There’s no money in building things that last.
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Alex88
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

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ZedLeg wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:06 pm The problem is that doing small local things won’t change anything unless the huge companies that actually cause most of the problems change too.

We’re too far down the line to say that if we started going to the farm shop instead of the supermarket that would force change.

All that would happen is that the multinationals would start setting up fake farm shops to sell their shite.

I stopped eating animal products a couple of years ago but I’m not fooling myself that it makes any difference. Makes me feel better though :lol:
Indeed.

Also, and let's, be honest, while a 'shop local' model sounds great, it's just a pipe dream at this point. Millions of people in this country alone are consuming meat every day. And this is all going to be sustained by outdoor reared, grass-fed produce? Or by local, do we mean local intensive factory farm?

I'm a little surprised that the animal agriculture sector seems to getting a bit of a free pass in the political environmental debate.

I too sopped eating meat (and dairy), but that was because I was becoming increasingly bothered by where my food was coming from and wasn't comfortable with it from a moral standpoint.
Last edited by Alex88 on Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alex88
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

Post by Alex88 »

Swervin_Mervin wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:33 pm
Gavster wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:55 pm
Eat less meat? Yes. Eat better quality meat? Yes. Replace meat with ultra-processed food? I wouldn't bother.
Totally agree. And regarding lab-grown/plant-based/etc, I'm a firm believer that many of the foods that we think will be our saviours start to raise questions regarding environmental effects when they're scaled up to a global commercial level. So don't start to think you're saving the planet by eating a plant/lab-meat burger as opposed to a meat burger - it's fantastically more complex than that.

THere is still much more to be learnt/put into practice that can significantly improve traditional meat agriculture's impact on climate. Better farming practices, land-use, hell even feeding cows seaweed. This was an interesting piece recently in the Guardian, of all places.

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/a ... t-champion

Hmmm. Not sure. We already know that the impact of plant based foods is significantly less than that of 'equivalent' animal foods. Especially when we consider land use/water/animal feed/methane, etc.

Some elements are also terribly inefficient - the feeding of crops to livestock that we could have eaten, the fact that animal agriculture takes up 80%+ of global farmland but provides people with only 18% of the calories.

Nice Gurdian piece, but I've seen plenty of articles from them supporting no meat/dairy!

To be honest, anyone, meat eater, vegan, or otherwise can easily find creidible evidence to support their viewpoint. But as you and Gav have correctly pointed out, this is a complex problem. A big problem at that.
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duncs500
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

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Quite a bit of correctness being spoken in this thread. As a number have alluded to above, XR/IB have fallen for the old con of no such thing as bad publicity. Messing with the life of the average Joe is not going to win you a popularity contest, and popularity is exactly what's needed, ideas that take hold with the electorate are what governments want to get on board with. Say what you want about Greta, she's definitely got a better approach than these lot who let idiots like that represent them on national TV.
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Mito Man
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

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I’d say it’s pretty basic common sense that:
Plant > livestock > human food requires way more resources and energy input than Plant > human food.
If fact I’m not sure how it can be argued against?
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duncs500
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

Post by duncs500 »

V8Granite wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:42 pm
You don’t go up Everest first, you do lots of smaller mountains and hills and progress up. If everyone tries to do one massive thing it’s definitely more likely to fail.

Dave!
It's true, unfortunately people aren't programed to operate in these big picture scenarios, what we need are lots of small changes in large demographics as quickly as possible. It will make a difference, maybe not as much as is needed, but it seems like we're in damage limitation mode at this point anyway.
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duncs500
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

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Mito Man wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:18 pm I’d say it’s pretty basic common sense that:
Plant > livestock > human food requires way more resources and energy input than Plant > human food.
If fact I’m not sure how it can be argued against?
Broadly logical I'd say, but it all depends on the individual product life cycle I guess.
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duncs500
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

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I think it would help if people focused less on trying to replicate meat with meat free products and put a bit more effort in to making more delicious non-processed plant based food. It's more than possible to have meals made of just plant based without anything in there that even resembles meat, people just need to learn how to do it.
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Re: X R idiots blocking roads

Post by jamcg »

In terms of imitation stuff Quorn crispy nuggets are amazing. Better than any chicken nuggets ever
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