Coronavirus

[NotoriousREV]

1) It's one of a series of contract, not all of which have had their value disclosed. Of those which have been disclosed, the total to Faculty alone is £1.6m. I've seen estimate for the total at over £4m. That total doesn't include the value of the data afterwards, which is retained by Faculty.

So still not multi million pound contracts, unless you use your magic source estimate.

Not multi-million? Only a fraction have been disclosed yet (we're still waiting for the national audit office report, as the government is failing to follow its own transparency guidelines on publishing the details), but government published documents show a total of 177 contracts awarded since 26 March with a total value of £1.1bn, of which 115 were awarded under the emergency non-tendering process, with a total value of "just over £1bn". We have no idea of the value of the Deloitte, KPMG, Serco, Sodexo, Mitie, Boots or Palantir contracts yet.

Rev - what is the need for all the high-level, multi-source ID verification for a contract tracing app that's supposed to be anonymous?

How can it be anonymous if they’re going to contact you to stay at home?

You do know I’m not writing the app, right? I’m just pointing out that there’s likely uses of data that are not a printout of everything you’ve ever put on Facey B and your credit card payment history.

It’s one thing being vigilant, but you’re getting a bit Pearl-clutchy.

Just applying common sense tells you they’re not going to need your credit history, so what do they want with CRA data? ID is the only realistic option I can think of. Maybe there’s something else, I don’t know.

Same with social media stuff. It’s common to use the Facebook login API. Maybe they also plan to use your friends list and check ins to track you and who you were with? It’s not going to be very accurate or useful, so I can’t see why you’d use that over handset location.

[Nefarious]

Oh, you’re expanding beyond the article you had an issue with now. Cool.

No, I stated in my original post that I have an issue with the widespread practice of dishing out high value contracts to companies with close connections to government without proper tender, of which this is a prime example.

This does seem a slightly strange, nit-picky point (and one largely irrelevant to the issue of awarding a high-value, privicy invading contract to close associates of the current cabinet) to make a stand over.

well it’s inflammatory isn’t it. The article you quoted referenced one £400k contract that was awarded without tender, but you’re saying there’s multi-million pound contracts Being awarded that way. I’m not saying there isn’t but surely If you’re going to reference one, then reference the others too.

A few of the big ones:
Edenred - £234m
BFS Group and Brake Bros - £208m
Hologic Ltd - £151m
Randox Laboratories Ltd - £133m
Computacenter (UK) Ltd - £60m
Hospital Services Ltd - £35m
Bloc Blinds - £26m
Techniclean Supply - £20m
Amazon - £8m

[Nefarious]

It’s one thing being vigilant, but you’re getting a bit Pearl-clutchy.

OK, everyone gets to draw their personal line where they like, but my attitude is that given broad access to a large number of potentially sensitive data sets to a company which was previously criticised for its unethical handling of data, and putting no limits of the uses they can put that data to, has red flags flying high for me.

[NotoriousREV]

It’s one thing being vigilant, but you’re getting a bit Pearl-clutchy.

OK, everyone gets to draw their personal line where they like, but my attitude is that given broad access to a large number of potentially sensitive data sets to a company which was previously criticised for its unethical handling of data, and putting no limits of the uses they can put that data to, has red flags flying high for me.

Don’t get me wrong, I won’t be using our government’s track and trace app, but that’s because I consider them incompetent rather than evil in this specific case.

[Nefarious]

How can it be anonymous if they’re going to contact you to stay at home?

A data expert I am not, and I respect your superior experience in such matters, but as a lay-person answering that question - how about through the phone the app is installed? Or even through the app itself?

If people want to identify themselves by name, great, but I can't see a huge wave of fraudulent declarations that we necessitate the kind of validation usually reserved for bank account opening etc.

[Nefarious]

It’s one thing being vigilant, but you’re getting a bit Pearl-clutchy.

OK, everyone gets to draw their personal line where they like, but my attitude is that given broad access to a large number of potentially sensitive data sets to a company which was previously criticised for its unethical handling of data, and putting no limits of the uses they can put that data to, has red flags flying high for me.

Don’t get me wrong, I won’t be using our government’s track and trace app, but that’s because I consider them incompetent rather than evil in this specific case.

Agreed that I don't think there's a direct "evil" intent at this stage (beyond targeting people with adverts/ campaign propoganda etc etc), but at the end of the day, this is a commercial outfit with the specific purpose of developing clever algorithms for gaining insights through putting together massive datasets. If you give them unrestricted access to these private data now, can we trust them not to sell slices of that data to others at some point in the future when the algorithms are developed to a point where they can be put to more nefarious purposes.

[Rich B]

No, I stated in my original post that I have an issue with the widespread practice of dishing out high value contracts to companies with close connections to government without proper tender, of which this is a prime example.

This does seem a slightly strange, nit-picky point (and one largely irrelevant to the issue of awarding a high-value, privicy invading contract to close associates of the current cabinet) to make a stand over.

well it’s inflammatory isn’t it. The article you quoted referenced one £400k contract that was awarded without tender, but you’re saying there’s multi-million pound contracts Being awarded that way. I’m not saying there isn’t but surely If you’re going to reference one, then reference the others too.

A few of the big ones:
Edenred - £234m
BFS Group and Brake Bros - £208m
Hologic Ltd - £151m
Randox Laboratories Ltd - £133m
Computacenter (UK) Ltd - £60m
Hospital Services Ltd - £35m
Bloc Blinds - £26m
Techniclean Supply - £20m
Amazon - £8m

i have google too!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -19-crisis

[Nefarious]

Yes, damn me, with my verifiable information

[Rich B]

Well only one of the deals on the list (loosely) fits your list of issues!

[duncs500]

Not suggesting this doesn't deserve scrutiny, but there's probably many hundreds of companies with connections to the party and its advisors. It is really the party that's considered more friendly to business and as such is likely to have a lot of connections / donors etc.

[Nefarious]

Well only one of the deals on the list (loosely) fits your list of issues!

Are we still going?

Which bit are you fundamentally objecting to?
That I said the government were dishing out "multi-million" point contracts without proper tender to connected companies in reference to the Faculty story?

We've established that the collective value of the Faculty contracts is £1.6m (including some from before the emergency tendering was used) + the value of the data + the as-yet-undislosed value of some more contracts.

If you're arguing over whether "multi-million" is a fair description, I'm fine with that. Hands held up to sensationalist wording in the original statement. I think the fundamental point still stands if you go with the words "high value" instead.

It's being fairly widely reported that there is some controversy over these contracts (Deloitte etc), so it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that this is similarly questionable.

[Swervin_Mervin]

OK, everyone gets to draw their personal line where they like, but my attitude is that given broad access to a large number of potentially sensitive data sets to a company which was previously criticised for its unethical handling of data, and putting no limits of the uses they can put that data to, has red flags flying high for me.

Don’t get me wrong, I won’t be using our government’s track and trace app, but that’s because I consider them incompetent rather than evil in this specific case.

Agreed that I don't think there's a direct "evil" intent at this stage (beyond targeting people with adverts/ campaign propoganda etc etc), but at the end of the day, this is a commercial outfit with the specific purpose of developing clever algorithms for gaining insights through putting together massive datasets. If you give them unrestricted access to these private data now, can we trust them not to sell slices of that data to others at some point in the future when the algorithms are developed to a point where they can be put to more nefarious purposes.

Surely you should be asking those questions of the social media companies you're happy to give the information to in the first place?

[Rich B]

You keep changing what you think you said - it’s this:

“Why are the government awarding multi-million contracts without tender to companies their own members are shareholders in?”

so theres 3 points to it:

Why are the government awarding:

- multi-million contracts
- without tender
- to companies their own members are shareholders in?

Which ones fit this? Randox has a consultant that is an MP?

[duncs500]

If anyone has ever worked for the public sector they'll know that the normal procurement process usually takes several years, thank fuck they're bypassing the process! Otherwise we'll all have died of COVID before they've even got one (overpriced) mask!

[NotoriousREV]

How can it be anonymous if they’re going to contact you to stay at home?

A data expert I am not, and I respect your superior experience in such matters, but as a lay-person answering that question - how about through the phone the app is installed? Or even through the app itself?

If people want to identify themselves by name, great, but I can't see a huge wave of fraudulent declarations that we necessitate the kind of validation usually reserved for bank account opening etc.

Ah well, now this bit may well be a bit more nefarious (no relation). If they’ve told you to isolate and you do not do as you are told, what recourse do they have? If they know for certain who you are, it’s easier to fine you. Or maybe now I’m pearl clutching?

[Nefarious]

You keep changing what you think you said - it’s this:

“Why are the government awarding multi-million contracts without tender to companies their own members are shareholders in?”

so theres 3 points to it:

Why are the government awarding:

- multi-million contracts
- without tender
- to companies their own members are shareholders in?

Which ones fit this? Randox has a consultant that is an MP?

Youre chasing a misunderstanding - you asked me for a list of contracts awarded without tender, which is what I gave.
Re. The original statement, see the above concession to the words "high value"

[Rich B]

You keep changing what you think you said - it’s this:

“Why are the government awarding multi-million contracts without tender to companies their own members are shareholders in?”

so theres 3 points to it:

Why are the government awarding:

- multi-million contracts
- without tender
- to companies their own members are shareholders in?

Which ones fit this? Randox has a consultant that is an MP?

Youre chasing a misunderstanding - you asked me for a list of contracts awarded without tender, which is what I gave.
Re. The original statement, see the above concession to the words "high value"

Just scroll up - you’re not even quoting yourself correctly!

“No, I stated in my original post that I have an issue with the widespread practice of dishing out high value contracts to companies with close connections to government without proper tender, of which this is a prime example.

This does seem a slightly strange, nit-picky point (and one largely irrelevant to the issue of awarding a high-value, privicy invading contract to close associates of the current cabinet) to make a stand over.”

I specifically asked for contracts awarded in that way, meaning your examples should be all of these:

- multi-million pound contracts (Faculty )
- non-tendered (Faculty )
- awarded to government members Interest companies (Faculty )

You then posted a big long impressive list of Other contracts that also don’t fit this Description either (though I invited criticism of one of them if you wanted).

[Rich B]

Sam has gone back to nursery today, they’ve got pretty strict rules On how they receive the kids and what happens if anyone has symptoms. the kids are in smaller “bubbles” that don’t mix with other groups.

It’s fecking weird being sat at home without hearing him in the background though! It does mean I can actually get some work done In normal business hours on Tuesdays and Thursdays though!

[McSwede]

Sam has gone back to nursery today, they’ve got pretty strict rules On how they receive the kids and what happens if anyone has symptoms. the kids are in smaller “bubbles” that don’t mix with other groups.

It’s fecking weird being sat at home without hearing him in the background though! It does mean I can actually get some work done In normal business hours on Tuesdays and Thursdays though!

Our daughter was due the go back to school yesterday but their PPE delivery was late so school has been postponed until next week now. We were happy with the set up and safety protocol but it's more the psychological impact it'll have on our daughter being around some of her friends again. That can only do her a lot of good. Her behaviour has got worse and worse as lockdown has continued.

[Rich B]

Sam has gone back to nursery today, they’ve got pretty strict rules On how they receive the kids and what happens if anyone has symptoms. the kids are in smaller “bubbles” that don’t mix with other groups.

It’s fecking weird being sat at home without hearing him in the background though! It does mean I can actually get some work done In normal business hours on Tuesdays and Thursdays though!

Our daughter was due the go back to school yesterday but their PPE delivery was late so school has been postponed until next week now. We were happy with the set up and safety protocol but it's more the psychological impact it'll have on our daughter being around some of her friends again. That can only do her a lot of good. Her behaviour has got worse and worse as lockdown has continued.

Yeah, luckily Sam is young enough (2 1/2) to not be that bothered about the friends aspect of nursery, but it’s nice to know he will get to interact with other kids again. It must be far tougher for kids who are old enough to properly miss their friends.

He definitely missed his key worker and had no problem remembering her name when we got to nursery this morning - thankfully she is in his bubble! Hopefully he’ll enjoy it like he used to....