Con Air

[Simon]

What's the thoughts about these deportations?

Whilst clearly the rule of law has to be followed, and I'm not sure we want foreign nationals who are serious offenders to remain in the country, I'm not 100% happy with the way this has happened. Surely this could have happened in a more transparent way, whilst ensuring they had access to justice the whole time.

I don't think this is a race issue like Lammy would have you think, but equally we don't have a perfect record when it comes to deportations of late.

[dinny_g]

I'm not sure why you think this lacks transparency - there have been court proceedings and the article refers to campaigners ? Those with issues with Mobile phone signals at the detention centre are not on the flight etc. It's not as if the Army bundled them to Brize Norton under the cover of darkness and flew then out on Military Transports.

This process is pretty typical of many nations, the US, Australia, Canada etc. I met a guy at a Charity Event once (Prisoners Abroad) who was born in America and lived his whole life in America. English Mother but she had never become a citizen so neither was he. He served 18 months for a car crime and deproted back to the UK. Arrived her at 06:00 on a Saturday morning an knew literally no-one.

[Simon]

I'm not sure why you think this lacks transparency - there have been court proceedings and the article refers to campaigners ? Those with issues with Mobile phone signals at the detention centre are not on the flight etc. It's not as if the Army bundled them to Brize Norton under the cover of darkness and flew then out on Military Transports.

Yes,, but, it was only thanks to the campaigners and the court decision that some were stopped. Because those affected didn't have access to the mobile phone network, and therefore by implication, access to a solicitor or other justice, they could've left without any recourse the law.

Not trying to be devils advocate here, but I went to Harmondsworth immigration removal centre last year to visit someone who was being deported due to overstaying his visa. Was it right that he was being removed? Yes, of course. Is it still very tough for those who've spent years here (perhaps since childhood) and are being separated from their families and loved ones? No question. Does society owe it to these people to be absolutely fair and use removal only as a last resort? Maybe so.

[dinny_g]

No I see your point Simon - but to devil's advocate your devil's advocate, is not the Jamaican embassy's responsibility to ensure their citizens have access to legal aid, or at least telephone coverage to arrange this themselves.

I'm still not sure you think it "Unfair" to return them to their home country after committing a crime here that resulted in a custodial sentance of 12 months or greater.

[NotoriousREV]

“Home” country or just the country they were born in?

My brothers are British but have lived in Spain since they were babies. Deporting them back to the U.K. would be like sending them back to a foreign country. They’ve only spent about 4 weeks here since they were babies. They certainly don’t consider the U.K. to be their home country.

[ZedLeg]

My main problem with how it's been reported is this

On Tuesday, the Home Office said: "We make no apology for trying to protect the public from serious, violent and persistent foreign national offenders.

Where's the correlation between someone who served a sentence of 12 months and the above statement? I'd like to have seen a lot more transparency on how the people sent to the plane were chosen.

Also how do we know that the people who weren't supposed to be on the plane weren't there?

Using scare mongering language to quietly punt people out of the country is an alarm bell imo.

[Rich B]

Would any of these people have been eligible to become a British national? (Obviously they aren’t now as they have criminal records)

[dinny_g]

“Home” country or just the country they were born in?

My brothers are British but have lived in Spain since they were babies. Deporting them back to the U.K. would be like sending them back to a foreign country. They’ve only spent about 4 weeks here since they were babies. They certainly don’t consider the U.K. to be their home country.

See the example of the guy I met at the charity event. The first time he ever set foot on UK soil was after his deportation. He accepted this as a consequence of his crime.

If your brothers do not commit a crime then they have nothing to worry about. If they do commit a "deliberate crime" then they have only themselves to blame. If they commit an "accidental crime". Dangerous driving say then the outcome is pretty harsh but then they have family (you) in the UK and if not then Prisoners Abroad will help then when they are returned to the UK. Getting formally registered, emergency accommodation, food, clothing etc - it's one of their two main roles (the other being proving assistance to prisoners in foreign Jails)

One area I will agree we should have transparency is it should be stated clearly to all people in the UK who do not hold a UK passport that deportation is a possible outcome following incarceration at the discretion of the home secretary. Then everyone knows where they stand.

My last word on this.

[NotoriousREV]

“Home” country or just the country they were born in?

My brothers are British but have lived in Spain since they were babies. Deporting them back to the U.K. would be like sending them back to a foreign country. They’ve only spent about 4 weeks here since they were babies. They certainly don’t consider the U.K. to be their home country.

See the example of the guy I met at the charity event. The first time he ever set foot on UK soil was after his deportation. He accepted this as a consequence of his crime.

If your brothers do not commit a crime then they have nothing to worry about. If they do commit a "deliberate crime" then they have only themselves to blame. If they commit an "accidental crime". Dangerous driving say then the outcome is pretty harsh but then they have family (you) in the UK and if not then Prisoners Abroad will help then when they are returned to the UK. Getting formally registered, emergency accommodation, food, clothing etc - it's one of their two main roles (the other being proving assistance to prisoners in foreign Jails)

One area I will agree we should have transparency is it should be stated clearly to all people in the UK who do not hold a UK passport that deportation is a possible outcome following incarceration at the discretion of the home secretary. Then everyone knows where they stand.

My last word on this.

You’ve missed my point entirely. Well done.

[drcarlos]

“Home” country or just the country they were born in?

My brothers are British but have lived in Spain since they were babies. Deporting them back to the U.K. would be like sending them back to a foreign country. They’ve only spent about 4 weeks here since they were babies. They certainly don’t consider the U.K. to be their home country.

Under the eyes of Spanish law what would be classed as their country of origin?

Do they hold Spanish passports and Citizenship?

It's probably fairly moot as I guess they are fairly respectable and don't plan to commit any serious crimes so won't ultimately matter anyway, but legally its probably pertinent.

[NotoriousREV]

I don’t have necessarily have a problem with returning someone to their “country of origin” but I do have a problem with returning someone to their “home country” if it wasn’t or never has been their home. There’s a point where that becomes a disproportionate punishment, which is why the process needs to be transparent.

Yeah, yeah, don’t do the crime etc.

[Mito Man]

I’m trying to muster up some sympathy but my feelings just say ‘nope’

[integrale_evo]

“Home” country or just the country they were born in?

My brothers are British but have lived in Spain since they were babies. Deporting them back to the U.K. would be like sending them back to a foreign country. They’ve only spent about 4 weeks here since they were babies. They certainly don’t consider the U.K. to be their home country.

If they don't live here and don't have any intention of ever coming back why not become Spanish citizens?

[NotoriousREV]

“Home” country or just the country they were born in?

My brothers are British but have lived in Spain since they were babies. Deporting them back to the U.K. would be like sending them back to a foreign country. They’ve only spent about 4 weeks here since they were babies. They certainly don’t consider the U.K. to be their home country.

If they don't live here and don't have any intention of ever coming back why not become Spanish citizens?

They probably will post-Brexit. Prior to that, there was no reason as they have permanent residence.

[Simon]

Would any of these people have been eligible to become a British national? (Obviously they aren’t now as they have criminal records)

Potentially yes, usually using length of residence criteria. Although as you identify, when they did their crimes that went out the window.

[Rich B]

Would any of these people have been eligible to become a British national? (Obviously they aren’t now as they have criminal records)

Potentially yes, usually using length of residence criteria. Although as you identify, when they did their crimes that went out the window.

obvious question to follow (that we probably can’t answer), why didn’t they want to apply then?

[Beany]

If these people have done 12 months inside, there's a good chance they aren't the best at planning things. It probably never occurred to them, while they were getting their hands on a few dozen grams of coke, etc.

[Rich B]

If these people have done 12 months inside, there's a good chance they aren't the best at planning things. It probably never occurred to them, while they were getting their hands on a few dozen grams of coke, etc.

Sounds like the sort of people Britain needs...

[Beany]

I dunno, a trustworthy come dealer could be handy.

Legalising it would probably make more sense though, we might lose some marketing knobs through heart attacks.

[Simon]

Would any of these people have been eligible to become a British national? (Obviously they aren’t now as they have criminal records)

Potentially yes, usually using length of residence criteria. Although as you identify, when they did their crimes that went out the window.

obvious question to follow (that we probably can’t answer), why didn’t they want to apply then?

Put it another way. To gain citizenship (as we're going through) is arduous, onerous and expensive now. 10 years ago it was much cheaper and the requirements were lower, but it still probably wasn't high on their list of priorities. Face it, if you're drug dealing or whatever then your mind may not be on what passport you get to carry around.